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Thread: Rock Moss Green Formula for Benjamin Moore P22 Coating

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    Allegheny is offline Aluminum
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    Default Rock Moss Green Formula for Benjamin Moore P22 Coating

    John Oder was kind enough to send me a color sample of Patrick Black's version of the Rock Moss Green paint he used on his magnificent Hendey tiebar rebuild. That paint had been concocted from four separate colors of Valspar Tractor and Implement paint - unfortunately, Tractor Supply Stores discontinued the Valspar line and it's become very difficult to find.

    Anyway, I went to an industrial coatings outlet this morning and they managed to come up with a dead-on match.

    The Benjamin Moore formula - this if for their SuperSpec line of alkyd gloss enamel (P-22) - for one gallon is:

    OY 1x 30.0000
    BK 6x 8.2500
    TG 1x 19.5000
    WH 2x 6.2500

    Unfortunately, they were out of the P-06 primer in gray (unless I wanted to buy a 5 gallon bucket), so I won't get to try it out for another few days.

    A question: Benjamin Moore does not sell a hardener for the SuperSpec line; has anyone found a hardener and/or accelerator that will work with it?

    Cheers,

    Brian
    Taxachusetts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny View Post
    The Benjamin Moore formula - this if for their SuperSpec line of alkyd gloss enamel (P-22) - for one gallon is:

    OY 1x 30.0000
    BK 6x 8.2500
    TG 1x 19.5000
    WH 2x 6.2500
    Brian,

    I would like to thank you for going to the trouble of getting the forumula. I am going to see if my local Benjamin Moore will mix me up a pint to test out, and then go for a gallon of it. They only mix the pints in latex, but it will give an idea of what the color looks like in my shop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny View Post
    Unfortunately, they were out of the P-06 primer in gray (unless I wanted to buy a 5 gallon bucket), so I won't get to try it out for another few days.
    Do they only recommend P-06 for this color?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny View Post
    A question: Benjamin Moore does not sell a hardener for the SuperSpec line; has anyone found a hardener and/or accelerator that will work with it?
    This will not answer your question, as it is not a hardener, but it's a good tip that could fair out well with P22. On another machinist mailing list someone suggested using Penetrol with P22:

    http://www.flood.com/paint-additive-solutions/index.do

    "Makes exterior oil and alkyd paints, primers and stains flow more smoothly"

    That might help brush marks, but not the hardness.

    Thanks again for your legwork Brian, much appreciated. I am in the process of painting a machine and if this color works out and I can remix it up at BM, I have another machine which I will also use it on.

    Cheers,
    Alan

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    Allegheny is offline Aluminum
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    Alan,

    The P06 is recommended by BM for use with this paint. A single coat will do for clean, bare metal or partially painted/primed surfaces - just scuff everything up with some steel wool or a small grinder with a Roloc disk. If there is any rust, take down as much as you can with your favorite method and put two coats of the P06 on it.

    From what they tell me, the P06 is not tintable, so we figured that using the gray would allow it to be easily covered and offer enough contrast to avoid holidays.

    I've used Floetrol for years, but never with SuperSpec as I never saw the need for it. As long as the machine you're painting is relatively warm, it flows out nicely (reread that article I linked to about prepping the paint). I was wondering about the use of Japan dryer or similar as I've never tried it with this stuff.

    One thing I forgot to include with the formula is that it's mixed using the 4B tint base.

    Brian
    Taxachusetts

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    Wow - I get to be daddy of all future paint jobs this color on old iron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny View Post
    From what they tell me, the P06 is not tintable, so we figured that using the gray would allow it to be easily covered and offer enough contrast to avoid holidays.
    I just got back from Benjamin Moore. He had a gallon of M06, the predecessor to P06, but only had P06 in white. He suggested we could mix grey with the white by adding some black tint, but he said even though it was a BM shop, he wasn't sure which base it was and the primer could make a difference. The primer is about $50 for a gallon, discounted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny View Post
    I've used Floetrol for years, but never with SuperSpec as I never saw the need for it. As long as the machine you're painting is relatively warm, it flows out nicely (reread that article I linked to about prepping the paint). I was wondering about the use of Japan dryer or similar as I've never tried it with this stuff.
    Funny, I asked my store about Japan dryers also, when I was there a few days ago...he said as far as he knew, nobody used them with P22 and they might not be compatible.

    I think he felt sorry for me as he sent me back to find out the tint base, so he gave me a discount number which will take the cost of a gallon from $60 down to $43.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny View Post
    One thing I forgot to include with the formula is that it's mixed using the 4B tint base.
    Ok, that is what I came back to find out, what base your store used for the color. He asked if it was a dark or light color and I told him it leans toward the dark, and he said it is probably 3B or 4B (they have 1B/2B/3B/4B). He went in the back office to search on the net, and came back and said "that was on Practical Machinists, wasn't it?" He said he found it but there wasn't a tint base listed...you must have posted after, that was about 4:30pm. He could have missed your reply also...

    Every time I go back there they want 4 of something...I fear after the color is figured out I'll need 4 of something to determine what type of brush to get...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    Wow - I get to be daddy of all future paint jobs this color on old iron.
    JohnO, it still remains to be seen if this color can be reproduced, there's some type of mojo about it, I'm beginning to think that PatrickB and you might be the only 2 people on earth to possess this color...

    Seriously, I just wanted to paint a machine this color, it really looks nice...somehow mixing paint colors seems more complicated than it should be...

    What you/PatrickB have with TSC Valspar is Black, Grey, Yellow, Green and what Benjamin Moore used was Black, White Yellow, Green...my head hurts...

    At least I know it's 4B for the above mix, so the color can be reproduced again. Thanks Brian for doing the legwork to get that!

    Unfortunately this color can't be done with the latex sample pints, minimum is a quart.

    Cheers,
    Alan

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    thermite is offline Diamond
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    Quote Originally Posted by traditional-tools View Post
    ...somehow mixing paint colors seems more complicated than it should be...
    CAVEAT: This MAY NOT work at all, but ... faced with a need to match a painted surface to a faded colour of vinyl, I was able to take a sample to Lowes, where they used an optical gadget to gin up a Valspar paint code. Oil/alkyd based, and their 'best' grade, not latex. Match was as good as I could detect and it has stood the test of time.

    IF someone who has the actual paint could get such codes read-out opto-electronically - hopefully for more than one maker of paint - and post them online, then one or more 'very close' matches could perhaps be formulated in any of several brands of good paint.

    From what I've seen lately, Benjamin Moore is about as good as it gets, but some of the others are fair decent as well.

    Bill

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    Bill,

    Yeah, that's exactly what Brian just did. JohnO was kind enough to send a sample to Brian. Rather than bug JohnO I was just waiting for Brian to get the formula.

    With the tint base this can now be reproduced with Benjamin Moore P22. This is a paint that can be brushed or sprayed, so should satisfy everyone. The primer is still in question, which could be needed to make the color correct. My local store thought black tint could be added to the white primer to get grey, but from what Brian is saying above, his store told him that the tinted white will not work. I'm not sure it really matters, a grey would probably darken the color if anything and white would make it lighter. It's not as if the paint is translucent though...

    Cheers,
    Alan

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    thermite is offline Diamond
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    Quote Originally Posted by traditional-tools View Post
    .. his store told him that the tinted white will not work. I'm not sure it really matters, a grey would probably darken the color if anything and white would make it lighter. It's not as if the paint is translucent though...
    Wise to trust them because it is probably from more than a few cans of paint taken back and put on the 'close-out' rack, not just theory.

    Looking forward to some good photos - 'RMG' might be a good colour for my formerly canary-yellow Burke #4 with its WWI-era castings legacy. Looks a bit South-Bendish in grey primer right now, and isn't quite of an age where black suits it well.

    Bill

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    Bill,

    I have 2 machines that I would like to do with it. One from the 40s, one from the 50s. There is something about the pastel 'thang which Olive has...and this color has that same effect for me.

    Since it was Patrick Black's lathe which inspired all of this, I'll post it here. Although the formula is based on JohnO's paint. Will be interesting to see how the color compares to this.

    (Patrick Black's Hendey)


    Cheers,
    Alan

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    thermite is offline Diamond
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    Quote Originally Posted by traditional-tools View Post
    Bill,

    I have 2 machines that I would like to do with it. One from the 40s, one from the 50s. There is something about the pastel 'thang which Olive has...and this color has that same effect for me.

    Since it was Patrick Black's lathe which inspired all of this, I'll post it here. Although the formula is based on JohnO's paint. Will be interesting to see how the color compares to this.
    Hard to define why it 'works' so well as a colour for machine tools 'of a certain age', but work well it does. Sort of an understated elegance about the fit to polished cast-iron and brass 'brightwork'.

    Looking forward to trying it!

    Bill

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    thermite is offline Diamond
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    Sanity check on the economics of chasing the various recipes for Benjamin Moore paint in Rock Moss green.

    AFAIK, it has the so-far-proven bestest results for machine tools.
    Just in case anyone was wondering if other options were less-costly, it seems hardly so.

    Research turned up these - and I am not 'recommending' any of them - just illustrating costs:

    NB: Abbreviation 'CMFM' begins with "Catch Me...". Rest should be obvious from the $536/gallon price.

    =====
    Givens:

    1928-32 ('36?) Ford 'Rock Moss Green', 1932 (and ?) Graham code 5C 'Donegal Green Dark'

    Dupont L8621

    PPG - Ditzler IM117

    PPG basic code 117

    ====
    Acrylic enamel;

    ROCK MOSS GREEN ACRYLIC ENAMEL 1-GALLON KIT ~ Item Number: RSP AE1605-KIT-M

    Item Detail

    $84.95 (Kit with paint, reducer, hardener), $83.93 paint only

    Also listed as urethane basecoat + clearcoat, and as a single-step urethane at ~ $110 and up,

    Ex: 'Slow' gallon kit with 1 Gal paint + reducer + hardener @ $149.95

    Item Detail


    ====
    Another Acrylic lacquer, this one at truly CMFM price:

    Model A Ford Paint - Acrylic Lacquer - Rock Moss Green - Gallon - MAC's Antique Auto Parts

    PPG Duracryl Model A Ford Paint - Acrylic Lacquer - Rock Moss Green

    Year............Part Number..Unit Of Measure...Price
    1929-1936..RSPD117G.....GALLON................$535.95

    ====================================

    Bill

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    This thread seems to have omitted the essential tint base. Please fix.

    On edit

    Tint base is 4B. I missed it up there in Post #5
    Last edited by johnoder; 10-18-2012 at 11:15 AM. Reason: I think I rememember :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    This thread seems to have omitted the essential tint base. Please fix.
    Post #1 has probably expired the 'edit' timer, needs new.

    W/R Valspar ... Suspect B-M is actually better paint nowadays, but AFAIK Valspar didn't fold - just did a name-change. That MAY have also meant a chemistry change though.

    Bill

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    Allegheny is offline Aluminum
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    W/R Valspar ... Suspect B-M is actually better paint nowadays, but AFAIK Valspar didn't fold - just did a name-change. That MAY have also meant a chemistry change though.

    Bill
    Well, I spoke with the Valspar corporate HQ people several months ago during this exercise, and there was no mention of a name change - just a suggestion to have one of their residential paint dealers order it in for me (as they all had a minimum order of 8 gallons for each color and as I had no intention of painting a battleship in RMG) that wasn't gonna happen. TSC simply phased out the Valspar T&I paint and replaced it with the Majic brand. Can't remember who makes it, but it definitely isn't Valspar.

    Brian

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    thermite is offline Diamond
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allegheny View Post
    Well, I spoke with the Valspar corporate HQ people several months ago during this exercise, and there was no mention of a name change - just a suggestion to have one of their residential paint dealers order it in for me (as they all had a minimum order of 8 gallons for each color and as I had no intention of painting a battleship in RMG) that wasn't gonna happen. TSC simply phased out the Valspar T&I paint and replaced it with the Majic brand. Can't remember who makes it, but it definitely isn't Valspar.

    Brian
    Seniour moment. Bass-Ackwards. Just checked. The Lowes 'American Signature' I had been using on the house renovation 'became' Valspar, not the reverse.

    Not in the same county as wot is wanted for machinery though.

    How about that 'missing' Benjamin Moore tint base JO mentioned? Discussion was in thread about white base being 'wrong', but what is the correct item?

    Bill

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    I haven't been able to get back to Benjamin Moore yet, they are unfortunately not close to a freeway so it makes it just a tad more challenging to get to.

    In regards to Valspar being at Lowes, yes that is correct but not the same type of Urethane Alkyd paint, AFAIK. At least the people at Lowes couldn't tell me that.

    I think much has been done on painting machines and much has been learned already...but one of the keys is having the right paint. That goes for whether one brushes or sprays, you just need the right tool for the job so to speak.

    I can't profess to know too much about paint, but most of the commercial paint stores have access to better quality paints, this is certainly the case with Benjamin Moore, AFAICT. Not to mention you can't mix certain colors with certain paint. As an example, the latex which BM sells in a pint sample can't be mixed with this formula. They can mix a QT up, but that is $22. A gallon is $44. Both of those are discounted, and $30/$60 respectively list price. I mentioned this because there are NO RETURNS once you buy the paint and mix it with the formula...because of that I am trying to wait and get the gallon, with a gallon of primer, that will be about $100.And if you buy the primer, my local store only sells gallons.

    I know you mentioned about latex vs. alkyd enamel in regard to coloring above, BIll. Just pointing out how there are no returns on the paint and if you really want to buy primer and paint the entry level goes up.

    I don't understand the primer either, but all of this stuff seems so finicky I guess it could be so...I don't see that as being a show stopper, just get the P06 Gray to be safe. But if you use other, it might be slightly different than formulated.

    Even the links you list offer primer or not. While it would change the color, probably applying 2 coats of paint would compensate. Keep in mind that those car paints are spray only. The BM is paint or spray, and why I was looking for it. My reference to it was in the Renovation book which Steve Brooks wrote where me mentioned any High Quality Industrial Alkyd Enamel, and notes the Industrial Series 7400 from Rustoleum or Benjamin Moore P22.

    A lot of people seem to use Sherman Williams and I guess that could also work for their particular Industrial Alkyd Enamel, whatever they call it.

    All that said, JohnO/Brian did the leg work. I was just looking to get a match to the color. Dealing with my local Benjamin Moore (commercial store) made me realize that "paint engineers" do exist... At the end of the day it's a machine after all.

    Cheers,
    Alan

    PS - Yes JohnO I see you found that 4B for the tint.

    -----------------------
    Benjamin Moore P22 Formula

    OY 1x 30.0000
    BK 6x 8.2500
    TG 1x 19.5000
    WH 2x 6.2500

    Tint Base
    4B

    Primer
    P06 Gray
    -----------------------

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    thermite is offline Diamond
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    Quote Originally Posted by traditional-tools View Post
    "paint engineers" do exist...
    More than just the paint gets Engineered. Used to play darts in suburban London with a guy from ICL who had developed the fiendishly expensive spherical lab gadget that determined the precise spectral distribution of a sample colour. Never expected to see an offshoot of that technology show up as essentially an idiot-resistant 'appliance' at any 'Big Box' store, nor work as well as they do.

    BTW - never mind the $535/gal outlier - if you have looked at garden-variety latex house paint prices of late, the roughly $45 to $65 /gallon for this much more complex and durable B-M paint - more especially in a custom colour - is actually a bargain.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    More than just the paint gets Engineered.
    Sure, but being a software engineer, the last thing I want to deal with is a paint engineer! lol

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    BTW - never mind the $535/gal outlier - if you have looked at garden-variety latex house paint prices of late, the roughly $45 to $65 /gallon for this much more complex and durable B-M paint - more especially in a custom colour - is actually a bargain.
    I pretty much agree with you and why I have been waiting to see if the color can be formulated. After all, how cheap can good quality paint be? At some point it becomes colored water with lead in it from our soup du jour of the country we're off shoring this month ...

    At least Benjamin Moore paint is still produced in America, FWIW. And that IS worth something to ME!

    Cheers,
    Alan

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    thermite is offline Diamond
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    Quote Originally Posted by traditional-tools View Post
    ...waiting to see if the color can be formulated. After all, how cheap can good quality paint be?
    After all the tedious preparation required, we really, really, do not want to have to do it twice, so not only quality, but 'touch-up-ability'.

    Good to get the formulation on-record, but otherwise a perfect colour match is not required.

    I wasn't REALLY going to paint a Burke #4 crimson just to refer to it as Le Moulin Rouge.



    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Good to get the formulation on-record, but otherwise a perfect colour match is not required.
    I couldn't agree more. I was telling Brian in PM that some of the other olive shades do the same thing as this RMG but there is just something with a tint of bluish/green it has going for it. However, if you search on RMG and TCP Global you'll see different cars that are different color on the monitor and my guess in person also. Some of the Model Ts looked almost like a dark hunter green for RMG. It does seem mostly shown on commercial trucks around '29 to '31, and that is quite interesting in that it falls plum smack in the great depression. Seems fitting to paint a machine that color today, heh?

    I think it mostly has to do with the quality of the paint, although some colors are nicer than others. Some machines just look better than others. As an example, Macona's 10EE is a beauty, and while I wouldn't normally pick a color like red, there is nothing wrong with that color and the machine looks beautiful.

    I guess I don't want to get too hyped up over RMG until I see if I can get my machine looking half as good as Patrick Black's Hendey...lol

    Cheers,
    Alan

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