This is a new thread following the Mystery DP thread I started recently.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...dp-183005.html

I'm going to continue the story here as I bring it back to working order. For those that did not follow the other thread, I found it at a steel and surplus yard, and it lured me back to save it.

This will not be a restoration, as I need/want to use it. I have too many other projects right now. I will clean it and put a quick coat of paint on it, as it's pretty well lost all it's original paint.

Some pics in other thread, more to be added here later.

Continuing from the other posting....

Joe in NH, I think I'm far closer to gloat mode than I was expecting.

I've got it mostly apart in a little more than an hour. I have obvious movement in every rotating part, although some are very tight. Nothing is being forced to move until it's been soaked and cleaned. The parts washer will be running overtime shortly. The main babbit bearing are worn some, but don't really look too bad. Some water got into the lube holes, so there is quite a bit of rust on the shaft, but does not look serious. There are thick spacers under the caps, so I suspect they can be adjusted for wear.

Came back here (other post) to review Doc's spindle/quill comments. That's the only part left. I can turn the spindle by hand, and rock the quill back and forth, but it will not budge up or down even the slightest fraction. The quill may be frozen in the gear at the top. The whole assy is almost falling out the bottom of the casting, but the chain only has about an inch of slack left.

I stopped and bought some solvents. Found an interesting thing at Lowes - 'Fabulous Blaster Powerful Penetrating Catalyst'. Man it smells familiar, but never heard of it. Also found that Liquid Wrench has a WD40 equivalent 50% cheaper than WD40. Bought 2 of each, and only needed a few teaspoons so far. Nothing is really stuck!

I did almost have a disaster. Due to the height, I can't lift it off the trailer whole. So as I removed the parts I used them as counterweights on the tongue end. Somehow I got the vise too far back, and after I lifted the motor (large 'real' engine hoist with 6k lb ram) I had to sit on the trailer to push the lift and get the motor off to the side. My weight was enough to tip the trailer back (jack stands under it now, should have remembered that from the BP Mill work), and it dropped to about 30-40 degree angle. The small parts, tools and 32 oz drink rolled/slid/spilled off the back end. The vise, and main casting never even budged. That's the only time I've come to dropping/tipping anything bigger than me. My only worry is that the main shaft also rolled off onto the floor. No obvious damage.

More to come!

John

I haven't yet decided but I might be replacing my main upper shaft and lower pulley shaft with new materials. As you noted, some water got in through the oil holes and formed some rust. I've removed it pretty thoroughly, but it of course left behind splotches of pitting.

It may not be of great concern, as the shafts ride on a film of oil when running, but being a drill press, there'll be a lot of starting and stopping. The lower pulley shaft I'll almost definitely replace, as it's the worst of the two, and the poured-solid babbitt has no way to adjust clearances.

If the upper crown gear will turn in the casting, but won't release the spindle, just lift the whole mess straight up. In my Rockford, at least, the gear was not retained at all. No pin, no locking collar, etc.

Doc.

I have polished awful looking shafts with 4 - 6- 800 grit wet or dry sandpaper wet with kerosene and they ran fine.

Be sure to get the grit out of the pits.

Paul

Watch out for the base on this. Maybe not so tender as WF&J Barnes machines, the tendency is to "crack" across just in front of the column.

I think a lot of the 20 and 21 WF&J Barnes get this way because they're small enough to tilt slightly to the side and "walk" across the floor. (think how you move an acetylene/oxygen tank.) Apparently there is enough bending of the base to cause a crack to form.

I was given two WF&J Barnes DPs, both of which had this defect in varying degrees. And I've seen the defect on at least one more I didn't own.

Joe in NH

Royersford literature - foundation dimensions, lube chart, parts list here.

This was sitting outside at Fazzios, wasn't it? In the shed/leanto off to the far right of the last building. Where I recall they have an old W&S turret lathe, dying a slow death. I think they also had several radial drills rusting away in the same vacinity.

Lots of good progress today. Only major thing left is getting the spindle out of the bevel gear. I suspect that water ran down the shaft and locked them together. I almost think this machine got rained on (probably only once) and put away wet. Several of the smaller shafts have signs of rust lines. I'll soak it for a while and see what happens.

The problem with the quill turned out to be my bad. It would not push up because it was hitting the quill gear. Duh. I pulled out that, then it pushed right up, along with the top gear.

The main shaft bearings are well pitted. I think I'll try Paul's polishing plan and see how it goes, and consider Docs replacement idea for another time. The counter shaft is very nice at the motor end, and slight signs of rust at the other end.

The main downfeed drive shaft is also nearly frozen. I thought it was moving, but it turns out that the pulley was slipping. Got that soaking, too. The backgear eccentric is also locked, but the gear turns fine. More soaking.

All the major parts cleaned (and inspected) in the parts cleaner. No noticeable wear and not a single damaged tooth.

Jeff, Thanks for the link, but I found your sight already.

A few pics.

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reggie_obe, Not quite outside, but close to it. The shed is in the back of the 'aluminum' building. They may have moved things around as I understand they scrapped a lot of stuff when scrap was high not long ago, and consolidated things. They are getting ready to build 'a huge building' I was told. I thought it was a housing development growing around them. They have machines spread all around.

John

One more note for tonight...

Has anyone considered using felt wicks in any of the oil holes in machines like this? I would think that it would make a huge difference on debris getting in, especially on the 2 main shafts. Might even help keep a more constant flow of oil, and less dripping out. The main caps are begging for crap to collect. All 4 of the caps on this one had solid crud blocking the holes, and the groove of the babbit on the mainshaft.

John

I'm planning on fitting small snap-cap oil cups to my main-shaft bearing caps. I'm not yet sure about the lower pulley shaft, as I may well be switching that to sealed-bearing pillow blocks. (The babbitt may be too worn to use properly, and modern bearings would eliminate a couple of oil cups. I want to use the thing, not spend all my time maintaining it. )

But apart from that, I don't see how a bit of cotton would hurt anything. On mine, the existing cups are so small that they wouldn't hold an appreciable amount of cotton and oil, so I doubt it'd save much oil-can time.

I will note, though, that on my crown gear, there was a hole drilled in from the underside of the gear, which was packed with cotton/felt/fiber of some sort. I assumed this was a wick to help maintain the oil film between the lower face of the gear and the top of the "thrust washer"- which in my case was a flat circle of something that looked fiberous and phenolic, almost wood. I have no idea what it was. I may replace it with a Delrin or Teflon disc.

Doc.

Doc,

I was thinking about oilers on the main bearings, too. Maybe something like below for that 'period' look? I agree on the use it, not just maintaining it. Mine is only for casual use, nothing production.

I'd be interested to hear more about the pillow blocks. Would you mount them atop the existing shaft support? Since you noted sealed, I guess they would have to slip over the ends, right? The end opposite my v-belt pulley has a significant burr around the entire diameter, almost a 1/16". Nothing a file or grinder can't fix, of course. I don't know that I'm up to trying to redo babbit bearings, although mine should be OK for now.

Any suggestions on the best tool to use (file, stone, etc) to ensure that there is nothing left of the rust on the shafts that sticks above the shaft surface? I used steel wool and a wire brush so far, and they look much better, but the pitting is obvious now.

Any pointers on putting the babbit caps back on properly? There are some very thick shims on each side of all of them, easily a 16th or more and with clear impressions so the position is fairly obvious, and the bolts are much smaller than the holes, 3/8 vs 1/2 (or so). None of the bolts were more then slightly tight. Is that typical for babbit?

The Southbend forum has a "tool loaner program", any chance that idea has passed by here? I'd sure love to borrow an MT4 reamer to touch up the spindle.
Speaking of that, I already have a chuck with an MT2 and a MT2-MT4 adapter (not MT3 as I thought before), but it does not come up the spindle far enough to reach the release hole (technical term). Any reason I can't make a spacer to make up the difference? Is there a proper tool for this, other than a simple tapered bar?

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-While those surely can't hurt, I had something more like these in mind.

-Actually, the vague and as-yet-undefined idea I have is an all-new setup. As I noted before, I'm thinking of making a riser, a short, fitted "table" to raise the whole drill up about six inches. I'm kind of tall, and the machine is deceptively short.

The table will also serve as a motor mount, as mine didn't have the built-in electric setup yours does. I'm proposing to mount the motor directly above the "tab" at the back of the base casting, in place of the original countershaft and mount. The motor would be bolted to the riser, not the drill base.

Then I'll make some hoop or bracket that mounts the countershaft directly above the motor. I'd obviously reuse the cone pulley, but I'll probably wind up making a new shaft and all the support bracketry. The old shaft, collars and bracket would be saved in case any restoration becomes necessary.

The cone pulley would then be raised roughly a foot, possibly as much as eighteen inches from it's original location. No big deal since I'll have to buy a new belt anyway- the old canvas one was long ago destroyed by exposure.

Now I know none of that applies to your setup, but if it were me, I'd just make a new bracket that holds a pair of over-the-counter pillow blocks, and whip up and new shaft for 'em.

-The electrolytic process I used pretty much assured that any of the actual oxide was removed. I hand wire brushed them while still wet, and plan to give 'em a good going-over with emory paper or the aforementioned wet-or-dry.

But a good whetstone, gently applied while the shaft is spinning slowly in a lathe should give you a pretty good indication of whether there's any burrs left. A fine file, applied the same way- and gently- would accomplish the same thing.

-A good question. This is my first babbitt machine as well, and my paper/fiberboard shims were likewise destroyed when I popped the caps. One thing I was going to try, at least, was to put the caps on without the shaft, and gently measure the bores (in several spots) with some telescoping gages.

Theoretically you could use some Plastigage like the engine builders use, if you can find a good smooth spot on both the shaft and the babbitt.

I'm not even sure what a proper clearance should be- I was going to shoot for two or three thou.

-Ditto on mine. The shims were paper or fiberboard of some sort, and at least .030 thick, probably more. Neither the tops of my casting nor the bottoms of the caps were machined smooth. My bolts are 3/8"-16, and were indeed not much more than just snug. I have reason to believe, since the original japanning still covered most of the cap seams, that the bolts had never been removed.

Strange to think that those were installed right around a full one hundred years ago, and weren't touched since.

-The tool is called a Morse Drift, and yes, it's nothing more than a tapered bar- albeit rounded on the top so as to not damage the quill slot too much.

The adapter doesn't reach up the spindle's taper far enough to reach the slot? I assume you've tried twisting it, so the drive lug lines up with the slot? In other words, does the spacer seat in the spindle properly, but just doesn't have a long enough tang for easy removal?

If that's the case, I'd say replace it. Sounds like an out-of-spec import. Or maybe a sleeve meant for a lathe tailstock- they typically self-eject with the tailstock screw, rather than a drift.

Sorry I don't have an MT4 reamer. Like you, I'll be picking one up for my MT3 taper, which is definitely abraded a bit and could use a bit of a cleanup.

Doc.

Doc,
Thanks again for the tips.

The oilers you noted work best if there is a reservoir to hold the oil. They don't hold but a few drops, unless you go with the big boys at the bottom of that page

Since I'm probably not going to get much more done over the next week or so, I just might try to set up for an electrolysis bath on both spindles. I don't think anything else really needs it. It's probably too big (even without the double V pulley) to spin in my SB9 as you suggested for the bearing surfaces. Maybe a simple roller support.

The wear marks on my babbit clearly suggest that it's only contacting the top and bottom. The sides have no wear marks at all. I'm suspicious that they've been redone. The rear main shaft bearing looks off center by almost a 1/4 inch.

Morse drift, a more technical term than I used.
My MT2 chuck came with (but did not fit) my BP M-head (B&S7) Mill, and the MT2-MT4 adaptor came with either an old Union tool chest full of cool stuff, or one of the SB9's I bought (but won't fit!), not sure which. You can't even see it in the spindle hole. The MT2 tang barely reaches the end of the adapter.
Rather than spend any money now, I'll try the spacer idea first. The chuck only opens to 3/8, so I'll need to do something different soon anyway.

John

I have a Jacobs 16N (5/8" ball bearing) on my Royersford and it's a good size. Anything bigger would overcome the counterweight too easily.
Andy

Andy,
Thanks for reminding me. I had read that in another post, but already forgotten.

I figured out why my adapter seems short. It is short. It's meant for a lathe, so there is no access hole and tang. I should get a proper one, then I'll be fine.

John

-Don't overestimate the oil consumption. My thought is less "keep a bunch of oil on hand" and more "just add a cap to keep dirt out". With a larger reservoir, unless they have a mechanism for stopping or controlling the flow, you might find that you come back in a week only to find the whole thing has slowly emptied itself all over the floor.

At least on mine, the original "reservoir" is just a small vaguely-conical hole that might hold three or four good drops of oil, tops. Any of those smaller caps will double or even triple that, and a bit of cotton wadding will help control the flow.

-Interesting. Does the shaft line up/is parallel with the casting?

-Someone in another thread noted a similar shortcoming, and it was suggested to just have a small rectangle of steel that one could drop through the drift slot. No reason that won't work, as long as you remember to catch it as you pull the adapter, and don't leave it in while drilling.

Doc.

My caps have an inverse pyramid shaped reservoir. Might hold a teaspoon of oil. Wicked oilers might slow down the flow as it pines for the floor. But you make a good point. The weight of the shaft will open the top gap as the oil film is squeezed out below.
Cap it, and fill it at each use as needed, just like the instructions say! Just keeping the dirt out is key.



I doubt it. The flat belt end is clearly off center. I did not notice the alignment on the other end.

Speaking of the flat belt, how do you control tension on them? I have no flat belt experience. 2HP seems like a lot to transfer, not that I'll be needing all that most of the time.
John

-Basically just by having the belt the right length.

With a modern V or poly-V belt, you're given a belt of X length, and adjust the machine to provide the tension. With a flat belt, you're given a machine dimension of X, and you cut-and-reclip the belt to provide the tension. (Or relace, or reglue, or resew, etc.)

Doc.

I cut some pieces of felt to put in the oil holes for the Babbitt bearings. I just squirt some oil on top when I start using it and they help keep the shop grit out.

You'll want a big chuck eventually if you have/find large straight-shank drills. You'll want to use the capacity of the drill press. A smaller chuck like the 16N will be better for smaller drills, though. I have one, too.

I need to trim my flat belt for more tension. Right now the belt will slip if something goes wrong or I push it too hard (3/4 HP motor for now). It's an OK safety at the moment, but I have a 1 HP motor from the right era to mount and I'd like to tighten it up. What references are around for determining proper belt length? I have a composite rubber/fabric belt, but it has a bit of damage on one side. I may tension it by cutting out the damage and sewing it back together.

JacobS,

I've got some felt cord that I'll probably use in the bearing caps. Simpler (and cheaper) than the capped oilers.

My machine came with very well worn (and torn) belts, and I don't think they are leather. The main drive belt measures 2"x138", but was quite loose. The down feed belt was 1"x32" and a snug fit. The motor on it is 2hp, double what's stated in the brochure that Jeff has on his site. That's a lot of power for a drill, but it's quite a drill.

I'm planning to order 4 Ply SBR Rubber Flat Belting from Mcmaster to replace mine. They don't have that in 1", so I'm ordering an extra 3 feet, and will cut it to 1". The 'lacing' is more than long enough for several belts. I may back off to the 3 ply size, as I think the minimum pulley size for the 4 ply is bigger than the downfeed pulley. Using the same size for both saves $25 on another length of lacing for the thinner belt.

I found a very nice 18N chuck with a MT4 shank on ebay today. $86 with shipping. Seems like a good price considering the condition and what others want for theirs. New, without a shank they are over $200. I even saw one at $323. Ouch!



I have decided that I need to spend the extra few hours (over a few weeks probably) and de-rust the whole machine using the electrolysis method. I've got it so far apart that it does not make sense to shortchange the project. I still have to get the spindle/quill out, but that's all that's left on the main casting. The machined part of the column has a heavy layer of surface rust, the base is fairly bad, as is the table and motor mount. The painted part of the main casting is very good, protected by 2 layers of paint. I will selectively do other parts, but they don't need much. Ahh, then there is the vise. The screw is not frozen, but the moveable jaw is. It will be interesting to see how that comes out. It's huge and heavy, and comes apart, but might be easier to handle whole.

I'm going to use a plastic trashcan for the tank, and can then suspend the 2 main shafts in it whole, as well as the column up to the unmachined point. The base may be too long so I'll do it 1/2 at a time.

I've gone back and reviewed the posts on the electrolysis de-rusting method, and read a number of others. I'd looked into this before, so it was more of a refresher. It seems that most people are using rebar for the anodes. I did see a couple references to using graphite rods to reduce the crud buildup. Has anyone found any other material that is a cost effective option? The rebar is cheap and easy to get, but it sure makes a huge mess.
The distribution around the 'tank' is another thing I'm not sure about. I've seen as few as 3 rebars, or as many as 8 (IIRC). Using rebar, again, is cheap. Anyone used this method in a similar diameter (about 24"), and have suggestions?

I'll post the progress.

John