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Thread: Seeking some advice, re diamond wheels

  1. #1
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    Default Seeking some advice, re diamond wheels

    Hello, all,

    I've got to replace the worn-out diamond wheels on my little 6" Hammond tool grinder. They are the usual plate mounted style, 3/4" width of diamond face, same as used on the Baldor or Delta carbide tool grinders.

    I've been lucky in getting serviceable used ones in times past, but now have 'no such luck'.

    What with all the corporate changes, buy-outs, etc., once-well-known names may be 'only names' used to sell 'brand X' components from......well, whatever country supplies them cheaply.

    I'd rather pay the high price for 'best quality' and 'feel the pain only once', and, of course, will insist on 'Made in USA' wheels. Yes, the products of the charming native artisans of far-off, picturesque Gondwanaland may well be on offer at only one-fourth the price, but, well, I 'have an attitude', as you may understand.

    Can anyone give me the gen on best quality brands, and recommend a reliable supply house to buy from?

    And.........the work is simply the usual Carboloy-tipped lathe tool re-grinding. What 'grits and grades' have you found to be optimal, in your experience?

    cheers

    Carla

  2. #2
    L Vanice is online now Diamond
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    Continental Diamond Tool is just a few miles from my home. I have dealt personally with the owner and seen the shop. Their wheels are made in New Haven, IN and are top quality. They will do specials. Home | Continential Diamond Tool Corporation Larry

  3. #3
    stephen thomas is offline Diamond
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    Carla,
    I would be happy with 220 grit 100% concentration if the idea was to have only one.
    150 will grind a lot faster, but then the finished edge is not so good. 400 does a really nice polish, but slow to remove stock. My understanding is that "100% concentration" means 50% actual volume of diamonds in the matrix; and that for some purposes, 75% is "better". But I have always bought 100% when new since the price differential favors it. (possibly illogical and I should learn more, but there is only so much time in the day) Then I started to buy oddball new Norton wheels on ebay years ago for good prices, then once bought some dozen (might have been 9, might have been 13, I'd have to go look and count) Sopko arbors....that came with all sorts and grits of diamond and CBN wheels attached. I mostly use the 220 and sometimes the 180 grits. And various commercial as well as shop made diamond laps for touch up.

    Norton got bought by the French a number of years ago, and in the conventional wheels there are reports that quality has declined. I probably won't need new wheels unless for some idiot reason I get into a carbide business. But it is good to learn of a USA source and venture that Larry mentions.

    smt

  4. #4
    tdmidget is offline Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen thomas View Post
    Carla,
    I would be happy with 220 grit 100% concentration if the idea was to have only one.
    150 will grind a lot faster, but then the finished edge is not so good. 400 does a really nice polish, but slow to remove stock. My understanding is that "100% concentration" means 50% actual volume of diamonds in the matrix; and that for some purposes, 75% is "better". But I have always bought 100% when new since the price differential favors it. (possibly illogical and I should learn more, but there is only so much time in the day) Then I started to buy oddball new Norton wheels on ebay years ago for good prices, then once bought some dozen (might have been 9, might have been 13, I'd have to go look and count) Sopko arbors....that came with all sorts and grits of diamond and CBN wheels attached. I mostly use the 220 and sometimes the 180 grits. And various commercial as well as shop made diamond laps for touch up.

    Norton got bought by the French a number of years ago, and in the conventional wheels there are reports that quality has declined. I probably won't need new wheels unless for some idiot reason I get into a carbide business. But it is good to learn of a USA source and venture that Larry mentions.

    smt
    Norton as acquired by St Gobain, a Swiss company and that is why there is a Norton today. Good 'ol 'murican investers wee going to break it up piecemeal and get rich off the fragments. St. Gobain made a "white knight" bid and kept it intact. The superabrasive wheels are still made in Worcester MA.

    A 6 inch grinder belongs in your Bob the Builder toolbox. Chuck that POS and get a real machine. A 6 inch diamond wheel is likely a special.

  5. #5
    CarbideBob is offline Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    .....
    A 6 inch diamond wheel is likely a special.
    Huh?
    A 6 inch 6A2C with a 3/4 face is likely the second most common wheel in the world topped only by a 6 inch 1A1 3/8 or 1/2 inch wide.
    Check the McMaster catalog.
    For those who care the McMaster wheels are Radiac, 100 concentration, R hardness. (but they act very hard for a R, if you plan on plowing off .250 thou in one pass full width you will not like this bond spec.)

    Not sure what the mounting plate is on this grinder but every wheel house will have molds for a 6 inch 3/4 face so you can get any mounting made up in a couple of weeks.
    I mostly use CET and Wendt/Diacraft since I know their bonds well.

    I do not know this grinder so I can't add much to what has already been said by Stephen although if custom ordering for an off hand grinder without flood coolant I'd go down to a 50 concentration.
    Bob

  6. #6
    928gene928 is offline Aluminum
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    Carla,
    I recently purchased a diamond wheel for my Baldor grinder from MSC, they were on sale, and available in two diamond concentrations. It was very good quality and works well, I decided on the heavier concentration. Sorry, can't remember the price, but they were listed in their Metal Working flyer.

  7. #7
    michiganbuck is online now Titanium
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    I agree to buy a name brand wheels, Clipper, Norton, Bay state were common wheels just to name a few. I have never tried import diamond wheels so I can’t judge them. I did try an import aluminum oxide 46k and then threw it in the garbage.
    220 was the standard diamond grit and expected finish for new cutting tool sharpening with finer finish only when specified on print.
    On E-bay one can often find same around $100-$200. Good wheels are made very true to the back so we would indicate the mounting plate face and mark it for high and low. Then we would place shims (paper was good enough) to build out error to make the wheel face run true (+/ - .001 or .002). This saves much wheel use as the whole face runs out of diamond material at the same time so less diamond area is wasted. We always ran wet and the paper shims held up fine.
    The very old (early 60s and back) wheels were made with real diamonds and cut much better than manufactured diamonds. They cut with a swishing sound and gave a better finish.
    Always watch for high spot when using to work that area and one can keep the wheel to .001 flat or better so the wheel will grind flat and then run out of diamond evenly across the entire face.

    Buck
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  8. #8
    stephen thomas is offline Diamond
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    The superabrasive wheels are still made in Worcester MA.
    Well it is good to learn that!
    I have a number of their wheels up to 1/2 x 10" (goes on the DoALL) & the old ones are great products. Good to hear they are still made same place, same quality.

    A 6 inch grinder belongs in your Bob the Builder toolbox. Chuck that POS and get a real machine. A 6 inch diamond wheel is likely a special.
    Carla is a lifelong machinist, has owned shops with employees, knows what she is doing and has quality equipment. Just 'cause she asked for advice on a wheel spec is no reason to assume otherwise. I can't quite pull a mental image of the Hammond's, but IIRC, very similar to the common as dirt Baldor "carbide" grinders with tilt tables, 6" face wheels, and similar (maybe better, knowing Hammond) quality. Seems to me they came on a heavy pedestal, with some end guards. Definitely a high quality machine.

    smt

  9. #9
    CarbideBob is offline Titanium
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    I guess someone should ask if we are talking plated products where the diamond is one layer thick or resin bond where you can get 3/8 worth of diamond to work in.
    On a plated wheel you need the runout down in the tenths, a must for life, resin bonds not so critical as even on a hand grinder you will make it flat with use.

    While I do use a lot of plated wheels I would not use one here, life would be terrible.

    Just to show that grinding is a "black art" I've never encountered a natural diamond wheel that I liked.
    Michiganbuck is doing something different from me on the machine.
    Some diamond types work well in some bond bases, not so good in others.
    I get wheel salesman who bring in a test wheel telling me "XXX is using this and they love it".
    I'll try it and go back with "I have no idea what the puck XXX is doing but this wheel sucks, take it back, it does not work for me".
    (which is why I won't lay out a manufacture and bond spec here, we all like different wheels and this machine is outside my experience)

    Bob

  10. #10
    stephen thomas is offline Diamond
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    Bob,
    while you are on the line, what would a metallic bond wheel be used for?

    Back when getting them off eBay, I neglected to get the full spec or ask what the bond was on a 6" x 1/2" x 1-1/4 1A1 220 grit.

    The full spec on the new wheel is M4D220-N100M-1/16

    Would this be for stone or glass?
    As per the spec, it is not plated, has 1/16" of diamond around the rim

    Thanks,
    smt

  11. #11
    Rob F. is offline Stainless
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    Stephens post inspired another question if you guys dont mind. What is the difference between a diamond wheel for glass and one for metal? Is it just grit?
    Rob

  12. #12
    tdmidget is offline Titanium
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    =stephen thomas;2083798]"Well it is good to learn that!
    I have a number of their wheels up to 1/2 x 10" (goes on the DoALL) & the old ones are great products. Good to hear they are still made same place, same quality."

    I had the privilege about 10 years ago to spend a week a Norton in Worcester for a training seminar. We first gathered in a large room. About 50 students, at tables with plenty of room, about 30X 60 and 20 foot ceiling. the walls were a series of murals of acivities in the factory in the turn of the (20th) century era. EVERY bit of space not a part of the murals was covered in signatures. Names, floor to ceiling, no open space. The group was called to order and introductions etc. ensued. The speaker said that she could see that we were curious about the room. The room, she said, is called Norton Hall. The names are those of employees who worked here at least 25 years. As you can see, she said, we are out of room on the walls. That is why we have these books and walked over to a stack of huge ledger type volumes, pages about 18"X24", stacked about 8 inches high. These too were filled with the signatures of veteran employees. The talent and experience is indeed there.
    St Gobain, a Swiss company, saved Norton from being broken up with a "white knight" offer and it is a good match for their own abrasive operations. Worcester makes super abrasive wheels (resinoid bond), Vitrified wheels ( special order and large or otherwise unusual wheels), resinoid specials and they have a research and experimentation center. The operation used to be much larger back in the day but little is wasted. The old Heald machine building is a charter school. The place should ( and may be) a national historic site.



    "Carla is a lifelong machinist, has owned shops with employees, knows what she is doing and has quality equipment. Just 'cause she asked for advice on a wheel spec is no reason to assume otherwise. I can't quite pull a mental image of the Hammond's, but IIRC, very similar to the common as dirt Baldor "carbide" grinders with tilt tables, 6" face wheels, and similar (maybe better, knowing Hammond) quality. Seems to me they came on a heavy pedestal, with some end guards. Definitely a high quality machine."

    Somehow I pictured a 6 inch grinder as a little toy bench grinder. When I'm wrong, I"m wrong. One of those things that I am good at.

    smt
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen thomas View Post
    Carla is a lifelong machinist, has owned shops with employees, knows what she is doing and has quality equipment. Just 'cause she asked for advice on a wheel spec is no reason to assume otherwise. I can't quite pull a mental image of the Hammond's, but IIRC, very similar to the common as dirt Baldor "carbide" grinders with tilt tables, 6" face wheels, and similar (maybe better, knowing Hammond) quality. Seems to me they came on a heavy pedestal, with some end guards. Definitely a high quality machine.
    Hi, Stephen, and how've you been?

    I thank you for the kind words, but, well, truth is that there are some nooks-and-crannies of the machine trades where I can't really claim to 'know what I.m doing', at least, doing as well as is likely to be the case with some of the folks here.

    The fine points of doing best work in grinding Carboloy lathe tools with diamond wheels is one of those.......I've done that work for quite a few years, to be sure, but never got around to learning the 'fine points' about selecting and using diamond wheels...... so I'm not too proud to ask for advice from those who know more than I......... : )

    I went looking on the internet, and found a photo of a little 6" Hammond grinder like mine......yes, its a small, light machine, compared to their better-known one which carries 10" wheels, but it should be adequate for my use in small-parts work here. Its a much better unit of its type than the Baldor or Delta, to be sure, but was probably twice the first cost when new.

    Hammond Carbide Tool Grinder Model WD 6 | eBay

    Another

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/HAMMOND-WD-6...item565915ab56

    cheers

    Carla

  14. #14
    CarbideBob is offline Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen thomas View Post
    ...
    , what would a metallic bond wheel be used for?

    ....

    Would this be for stone or glass?
    As per the spec, it is not plated, has 1/16" of diamond around the rim

    Thanks,
    smt
    Stephen,
    I've never had very good luck with metal bond wheels, I have test a half dozen or so.
    They were very popular in the tool rooms of the auto plants on the older dry automated milling cutter grinders for regrinding teeth. These machines removed a few tenths per pass with a continuous oscillating motion and I have been told the metal wheels shed the heat faster.

    I do know of one shop that uses them for fluting as they will hold the "teardrop" form used in fluting endmills for a long time.

    I've never ground stone or glass so I don't know about wheels for these.
    My diamond wheel grinding is carbide, CBN, PCD, cermets and silicon nitride.
    Bob

  15. #15
    stephen thomas is offline Diamond
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    Thanks, Bob!
    smt

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