That triangular bed lathe from ebay.....

rivett608 · May 13, 2010

I fessed up that it was I that bought this.... well it came today..... HUMMMMMMM

Here was the original post about it...

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/e-bay-funny-203609/

I would like to thank wippin' boy for pointing it out.... now I can blame him for this puzzle

On first look it appears much nicer than I thought! It is VERY finely made, the workmanship is fantastic..... I can not tell from the first quick look how old it is. I will take it apart and study it carefully looking for tool marks to tell me if it is hand or machine made. It is much smaller than I imagined (this is OK with me)....... more later but her are some of the photos from ebay... I thought I would post before they disappeared. And the board it is mounted does appear to be a nice piece of solid oak.......

I hope to able to answer all my questions and yours......

BTW I did see that it has a tapered front bearing and the back end of the spindle is very interesting....

SouthBendModel34 · May 13, 2010

Rivett608:

You wrote: " It is VERY finely made, the workmanship is fantastic..... "

If YOU think the workmanship is fantastic, then it must be REALLY EXCELLENT. Your workmanship is done to a very high standard; if this lathe makes a favorable impression on you then it must be very fine!

I have a feeling that you are going to have fun with this one ! I suppose you'll restore it to the way it would have appeared while in use, which probably means gleaming steel and brass with japanned legs. It's going to look great!

John Ruth

rivett608 · May 13, 2010

I'm cleaning it now!!!!!.... I think it is old. Not sure about how nice I'll make it.... there does look like there might have been japanning on the legs and the thumb screws might have been blued. Doesn't look like there is going to any name or assembly marks on it.... damn!

As to fine work, the little blind keeper for the back spindle center shown in the photo above (well it's not shown, it is under the fancy washer) has 2 little splines on it to keep it from turning.... they are dovetailed into the body!

The strange thing is the threads seen to have a much tighter fit than other 200 ish year old stuff I have played with.

beckley23 · May 13, 2010

I think there is something in "The Watchmakers Lathe" book.
Harry

L Vanice · May 13, 2010

Sure am glad my computer logged me off eBay before I could place that last second bid. I don't need another project, and the APM probably would have tossed it into the attic.

Am I correct that the legs are cast iron, but shaped as if they were hand forged?

Larry

rivett608 · May 13, 2010

The legs are cast but the top (part fitting around the bed) was file finished and most likely left in natural iron instead of painted. I have been looking at a number of triangular bed lathes and they all seem to have different legs. One thing interesting is the holes in legs are threaded so it was meant to be screwed to a base from underneath.

Speaking of threads.... none of the threaded parts conform to any thread size I know off...... the thumb screws under the head, tail etc are .287 by about 21 3/4 TPI and have a slight rounded profile. There are no machine marks on it.... it appears to hand filed and the brass parts are soldered together... the triangular holes are built up, not cast as one piece. The detailing is amazing, in the picture above you see a turned brass washer and a little steel washer on top of it... well the steel washer has a knurled edge. I'm thinking this is late 18th century..... amazing what is on ebay!

I don't think the APM would have really cared much for it.... I am almost certain it is not American. And then there is the fact that I like it. So you were not the bid right under me? I wonder if that person will speak up?

wippin' boy · May 14, 2010

?..... as a mater of fact, how did you find it Whipping Boy?

being of unsound judgment and empty pockets i search e-slave everyday (twice) in a 300 mile radius figuring if something cheap enough, close enough pops up i can waste more time and money on stuff nobody else wants.
i assure you i had no idea this little guy was as unique as it turns out, it was the "oak board" humor that caught my eye
but
it is in the realm of poorly described items that i make sure are not diamonds in the rough that slip though the cracks
the other thing i really watch is stuff like this

!BtBlCWQB2k~$(KGrHqQH-E!Evlr98iwBBL6M7mUD!!~~_35.JPG

pictures with such bad lighting you cant see diddle
2 seconds in picasa lets you see the facts

so
i got a grin on my face the rest of the day

i am totally humbled by being able to count myself as a bird dog contributer to the "608" collection

congratulations Rivet

Billtodd · May 14, 2010

If YOU think the workmanship is fantastic, then it must be REALLY EXCELLENT. Your workmanship is done to a very high standard; if this lathe makes a favorable impression on you then it must be very fine!

I don't think this little gem could be in better hands

Looking forward to more pictures

Bill

rivett608 · May 14, 2010

We all do love bad photos or bad descriptions..... sometimes you win those bets....... I once bought a drafting set from a dealer at a antique show..... as I was paying him $ 32 he told me "this set would be worth more if it was marked Keen-Cutter of Winchester"(two 20th century hardware store brands)... what he failed to realize is dated from the time before George Washington was president!!!!!

And then there was the time on Ebay there was double hack saw with what I was sure was a ivory handle..... the photo couldn't have been worse........ so I spent my $ 12 on a BIN and ended up with a piece of junk with a plastic handle not even worth letting sit outside to rust.

When I looked at the photos of this lathe I too got a good laugh at the oak base.... then placed a bid! Then I went back and looked carefully at the rust.... and as I thought it is almost all on the surface..... it is not as pitted as it looked, at least the bed. I have cleaned it and will post photos..... the tee rest rust might be a little deeper....... but I did get one screw cleaned and they are blued, and some of that remains!

I'm having fun with it and again I thank Mr Wippin' Boy for his excellent hunting!

thistle · May 14, 2010

There are a few drawings and descriptions of these triangular bed lathes in one of Holtzapffels books ,have to drag it out later.

stephen thomas · May 14, 2010

Well I'm glad we did not get in a bidding war!
Being fully in the end run throes of a very long term and tiresome job that day, I actually forgot to bid, so next under you was not me. When I saw the ending price, I was relieved to have not been in the house when it went off so as not to be tempted beyond my limit.

I'm not a collector, more a hoarder, but try to restrain myself to things that i would actually use and enjoy doing so. The lathe was on the borderline, given it's apparent age. (meaning, very attractive & enjoyable, but impractical for my typical work, and maybe sensible to -not- use the way I typically use tools <hard>).

Glad to see someone who appreciates it and may even eventually be able to tell us more history, got it!

smt

SouthBendModel34 · May 14, 2010

A Wild Guess: It's an Ivory-turner's lathe

Rivett608,

I'm gong to hazard a wild speculation based on
a) The overall very high quality of the lathe
and
b) The wide tool rest
and
c) The apparent early date of the lathe.

I'd like to advance the postulate that this is an ivory-turner's lathe.

It had to be part of a trade that made something valuable - otherwise the craftsman could not have afforded/justified this level of quality. Ivory-turning ?

Mind you, I do not have any particular credentials that qualify me to make such an indentification!

John Ruth

rivett608 · May 14, 2010

From what I think I know I don't think the lathe was for any particular trade..... I think it is just a small fine lathe to be used by watch and clockmakers, someone turing small ivory things, someone doing instrument work... whatever. A lot of trades at that time had very specific lathes that only did one task... this is not one of those. The tee rest is the typical type of tee rest for that period, as Larry said you can do about anything with it. You know one problem I have since I do a lot of hand turning of metals is the tee rest is never the size you want... either too long or short... so you have a bunch in the drawer yet few old lathes were sold with different sized rests.... I guess they figured here is what were giving you... if you don't like it make your own. Nothing has changed. In response to it being made to make something valuable I think it is more in the class of Gentleman's lathe.... there is quite a history of much finer than average quality tools being made at that time.

SMT.... Thank you for not bidding..... it is never fun to get in a bidding war with friends even though sometimes that is just the way it is. I think you asked about the tailstock handle... it is original and I know of another 200 year old triangular bed lathe with a similar one.... I'll have to dig all these up and post photos.... I was also looking at pictures this morning of a lathe with similar but fancier brass mounts........

rivett608 · May 14, 2010

Here are some of the details I mentioned........ note the dovetailed splines and the knurling on the washers....

The bed appears to be hand filed.... notice on the top photo they have done a nice job except were it is hidden at the end by the leg bracket..... and notiice how course the bottom is. This is typical of early work, these people were not stupid, they did not do extra work that either didn't show or didn't matter.....

Now here are the thumb screws, one I have cleaned the rust off and the other I have not. It appears these have a sort of bluish color to them which a friend of mine pointed out means they must contain carbon and be steel instead of iron. That brings up a interesting question, when did they start making and using steel? This could help date this lathe. Right now I am guessing 1775 to 1825....

richmccarty · May 15, 2010

Steel has been around for a long time. It just wasn't until the 18th century that the techniques were developed to produce it in industrial quantities.

I know from experience that even mild steel (<.4% carbon) will blue nicely. Also, many watches from the 17th century have blued steel or iron parts, so I don't think traces of bluing are a datable feature.

Do you have Crom's Horological Shop Tools? You might be able to date the lathe based on the shape of the thumb screws. The treads look kinda modernish to me. If they are whitworth or BA or metric , that might help date it too.

Nice looking lathe, but I'm still holding out for a 19th cent, clockmaker's throw.

Rich
Richard McCarty, Conservation and Restoration of Antique Clocks

rivett608 · May 15, 2010

I knew steel had been around in small pieces like watch part size but I just don't know when they started having bigger pieces..... but then again these screws wouldn't have needed that big of a piece to be made from........ (in my thinking based on the way I make my miniatures I would turn this from stock of the largest diameter of the part.... they would have forged the head, I guess that is where I stray from doing things the old ways... it just looks like that when I'm done) .... so the bluing is not going to be a clue. The threads do not match any commercial threads and as I said earlier they are extremely well done and tight for something of this age..... I think the guy who made this was just a really fine craftsman.

Ted Crom would have been very pleased you referenced his books..... one thing he never understood and was a little disappointed about was how few people ever commented on his study of screws in H.O.S.T...... this type as shown in figure 104 is one of the most common.... used from the 18th to 20th century in England, France and Switzerland. Ted was one of my best friends and I miss him a lot..... if he were still around we would both be digging through are books looking for clues about this lathe.

Did you get anything at his auction at Skinner's a few weeks ago?.... there were plenty of clock throws sold.

Vince · May 15, 2010

There is a book called "Fighting Iron, A metals Handbook for Arms Collectors" by Art Gogan that is an excellent reference to the history of iron and other metals. Plus the cover has cover has a picture of a belt driven machine shop.

Amazon.com: Fighting Iron: A Metals Handbook for Arms Collectors

Vince

P.S. I think I was 4th in line on the bidding list for the lathe. Would have gone higher if I did not have so many projects ....

richmccarty · May 15, 2010

Hi Rivett,
I never had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Crom and my being just a humble craftsman prevented me from participating in the auction. I think we may know some of the same people in England. Do you know John Griffiths at the (now closed?) Prescott Muesum? He was a big help to me when I was writing my dissertation at West Dean College on the history of files and filemaking.

Anyway, I think you're right about the date of the lathe - late 18th - early 19th century would be my guess.

Rich
Richard McCarty, Conservation and Restoration of Antique Clocks

rivett608 · May 15, 2010

Rich I did not know Mr. Griffiths but might have met him with Ted once, I met a lot of people through Ted.

Here is the lathe cleaned up!!!!! I still might do a little more to the brass.... I can tell it originally was bright but for now I just got the dirt off. As you can see it is a cutie... I am very happy with it. The rust came off pretty good....... I used my razor blade method.... slow but I think the results are worth it. Remember those before photos?

Here you can see how the tee rest moves.... there are two screws going from the dovetail down through the brass block to a floating bottom...... just the slightest turn of the screw locks it snug.....

Jager · May 15, 2010

That is an interesting little lathe. Nice work cleaning it up!

What exactly is your "razor blade method"?

Thanks
Andrew

That triangular bed lathe from ebay.....

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Cast Iron

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Cast Iron

Diamond

Aluminum

Cast Iron

Diamond

Hot Rolled

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