Van Norman 22L (2x)

Paolo_MD · Jul 28, 2015

Today I've impersonated alskdjfhg: I've bought two Van Norman 22L (one with 50V and the other with 50NST/NMTB spindles), disconnected from the grid, a partially-disassembled 17" Leblond, and pieces of a Hardinge 2nd op lathe (I believe it's a DV-59) for more than reasonable price.

Here are a few pictures of the two milling machines from the Craig List ad:

(a couple more pics in next post)

The machines except for the LeBlond are located on the 2nd floor of an industrial building. There is an old wooden garage door and a chain fall from a steel beam above: You need to hook the load, lift it, let it swing in a controlled manner, and lower it to your trailer or truck bed.

Here is a picture from the outside:

Paolo_MD · Jul 28, 2015

More pics:

Doozer · Jul 28, 2015

I have a VN22 LU and it is a heavy beast, knocking on the door of 3800 lbs.
My 3000 lb Clark will take it off a trailer, but I don't think it will
put it on one. That beam looks like it has seen better days.
Be afraid.

-Doozer

Paolo_MD · Jul 28, 2015

The ground under the garage door is not flat and horizontal. Therefore, I've excluded quickly the option of renting a all-terrain fork lift and handle 3300lb top-heavy payload way above my head.
The good news is that I have time for organizing properly the move.

My plan is to take the machines apart in three sub-assemblies: ram+motor+head+overarm, table + saddle + knee, and column + base + feed motor.

More specific details on how to disassemble the machine will be discussed in this thread in the Cincinnati Milacron, Kearney Trecker, VN, USA Heavy Iron forum

No way I'd dare to swing the whole machine on that beam.

My weight estimate are 6-900lb for the ram block, 7-900lb for the table/knee block, and less (but not much less) than a ton for the column and base.

I have a 1000lb crane scale and I'll bring it with me to weight what I remove, so that I could have a better estimate of the weight of the casting.

In this thread I'll document as best as I can the moving, cleaning, fixing, reassembling, and--hopefully--using of the mills.

Please, expect that it will go silent for relatively long periods of time.

Paolo

PS Yet another reason I said I've impersonated alskdjfhg is that my machines will have to camp in my backyard waiting for me to remodel the barn.

Frank R · Jul 29, 2015

I'd be afraid of that chain too.

Can you bring your own chain fall or other type of hoist?

I would at least test that one first. And when you lower the parts don't have a vehicle under them to land on in case of any accidents; lower them close to the ground and then move the vehicle under them. Move the vehicle out of the way before the next load.

Derek Smalls · Jul 29, 2015

I'm glad somebody rescued these machines. Best of luck and I'm looking forward to seeing them run!

jdavi581 · Jul 29, 2015

I might be tempted to use that beam if you did a load test on it first since you have a scale. That would give me enough peace of mind to use it. I have moved a lot of stuff in a second story door very similar to what you have. We had the added complication of a rail line passing under the door. We ended up welding a plate onto the tracks and driving over that with the fork lift. Good Luck!
Joe

Paolo_MD · Jul 29, 2015

Thanks, guys for the comments and recommendations.
I'm definitely quite weary of that chain fall. According to the seller, they've lowered a lot of machines lately without a single problem. However, I rather test it myself with progressive (and not so important) loads first.
Good point in not leaving the trailer under the chain fall. That was already in my plans.

Probably, my proof load for the day will be the Hardinge part lathe. It should be at most 1000lb (at least what it is left of it) and I have less that scrap value invested in it.

The logistics of the move plays in favor of my plans: right now I can use only my light-duty (up to 1600lb) trailer and I'll borrow a real one only in the weekend.

Thanks!

Paolo

sfriedberg · Jul 29, 2015

I'm pretty sure one of those is a model 24 rather than another model 22, and that's the machine with the NMTB50 taper spindle.

Look at the cross-ways (Y axis) on the saddle. The 22L has a pure dovetail arrangement, while the 24 (both 24LA and 24MA) have what I call a "split half-dovetail": one side is a square box way and the opposite side is a dovetail. Van Norman also used the split half-dovetail on the model 2R (both 2R-3-28 and 2R-5-28). The machines larger than model 24 used "hat square" cross ways.

Ohio Mike · Jul 29, 2015

Sounds like you've already made up your mind but based on the labor needed to break the machines down and the uncertainty of the beam and the fact that you won't be able to lift directly from overhead I'd take my chances on the fork lift. If it looked that soft I'd see about getting some plate or just laying down sheets of plywood. If you can get a shooting boom lift you wouldn't even need to get up close to the building.

alskdjfhg · Jul 29, 2015

Glad your gonna save them.

Moving them in pieces would be safest, but if an inspection of the beam checked out (and calculated it's load capacity based on measurements), I wouldn't be scared to use that beam. Choking up as close as you can to the wall would help.

What about a shooting boom/telehandler type machine? They lose lifting capacity the further the boom is extended though.

Paolo_MD said:
PS Yet another reason I said I've impersonated alskdjfhg is that my machines will have to camp in my backyard waiting for me to remodel the barn.

I've been saving it for the eventual shop thread, but I have bought a "kit" (used and in a pile off Craigslist) and will be moving the trusses tomorrow.

The goal is to atleast have a roof up before school starts.

Richard King · Jul 29, 2015

They look like some good projects for a class :-) ? What ever happened to you and Dee having something at the Museum?? on moving the machines, better get some help. know any weight lifters? lol. Might help to hire a professional rigger to do it or at least one to help. Better safe then sorry. And tell the guys below to stand back when lowering. Those machines look like they will keep you busy for few years. Rich

boaterri · Jul 29, 2015

I think I would go with a telehandler for the move. Most of the larger units will have a leveling feature (left to right) to take care of the sloped ground. Easy to use, and far less likely to produce a giant hole in the ground with the remains of your machine when the beam pulls out of the wall. You can also easily pick the machine off the floor without having to swing the machine out of the building on a chain.

Good luck, plan the work, work the plan. Be Safe.

Rick

sfriedberg · Jul 29, 2015

My references say a 22L weighs 3400lbs without motor, while a 24L weighs 4100lbs without motor. 24M about 4300lbs without motor.

Paolo_MD · Jul 29, 2015

They're both 22L

Today, after work I went there, negotiated a deal for Tuckahoe:

14"-32.5" Putman sliding bed gap lathe in fair conditions (sorry, not much room to take a better picture)

And started tackling the mills.

The newer one, the one with the 50NMTB spindle is a 22L and the serial number (7434) places it at the end of 1952.

I was successful in removing the ram as planned: cranked the ram forward till the rack was disengaged, pushed it a few more inches using a crowbar, then I placed two pieces of 4x4 and longitudinally on the bed and two 2x3 on the top, parallel to the ram, at each side of the rack.

While the ram assembly was partially lifted with the engine hoist, I pulled it using the table movements (repositioning a few times the table. The last inch I've pushed from behind with the crowbar.

Just for the records, the ram assembly with motor, head, overarm (without arbor support) weighs ~850lb

Today I've used the chain fall only to lift my engine hoist and to lower a load of one 4-jaw chuck and a few face plates (~300lb): It's definitely much less excitement and much more control lowering down a load than lifting it and pulling it in.

Tomorrow evening I'll drain the oil from the knee, remove it (before cranking it all the way up I need to file/stone a few burrs from the top of the ways).

Paolo

Paolo_MD · Jul 29, 2015

Richard King said:
They look like some good projects for a class :-) ? What ever happened to you and Dee having something at the Museum?? on moving the machines, better get some help. know any weight lifters? lol. Might help to hire a professional rigger to do it or at least one to help. Better safe then sorry. And tell the guys below to stand back when lowering. Those machines look like they will keep you busy for few years. Rich

Richard, definitely, between all my machines and the ones at Tuckahoe there is a lot of material for a class. Regarding the organizing it I'm keeping quiet till Dee and my schedule will allow us to meet at Tuckahoe, so that he can evaluate the place himself. Hopefully, you'll hear from us within a month. If it were for me (well, I admit, I'm biased), the Machine Shop Museum would be a great place.

Paolo

sfriedberg · Jul 30, 2015

Paolo_MD said:
The newer one, the one with the 50NMTB spindle is a 22L and the serial number (7434) places it at the end of 1952.

That's fascinating, because it's got the saddle design I believed was only used on the 24's and 2R's. I wonder if this is a transitional machine (toward the end of 22 production, so possible) or a mix-and-match machine.

What's the table size? 10x45 or 12x50?

Was that serial number plate on the column or the ram?

At the base of the machine, dead in front and right above the floor, is there a model number cast into the small rectangular plate?

Paolo_MD · Jul 30, 2015

sfriedberg said:
That's fascinating, because it's got the saddle design I believed was only used on the 24's and 2R's. I wonder if this is a transitional machine (toward the end of 22 production, so possible) or a mix-and-match machine.

What's the table size? 10x45 or 12x50?

Was that serial number plate on the column or the ram?

At the base of the machine, dead in front and right above the floor, is there a model number cast into the small rectangular plate?

sfriedberg,
I'm not sure if it is a transitional model, or VN just changed design in the middle of producing 22L machines. Definitely, mine is not the only one with that type of knee. for instance another one recently sold very cheap on eBay

I haven't measured the table and, unfortunately, I forgot taking a picture of the model number cast in the base. But definitely, the two mills are pretty much the same size, whwreas, if I recallcorrectly, the ram of a 24 extends ten more inches compared to a 22.

The plate with the model and serial number is on the column.

Paolo

Paolo_MD · Jul 30, 2015

Confirmed, it's a 22L

Well, at this point is like beating a dead horse.

Anyhow, here are the ultimate proofs that it's indeed a 22L:

And the table measures 46x10" with the 46" measure being of the portion with T-slots, that is excluding the flanges with dials, etc.

More about today's adventures in a few minutes, after a good shower.

Paolo

sfriedberg · Jul 30, 2015

Thank you, Paolo! I appreciate your patience, and will go update my spreadsheet with this info about variant 22L builds.

Van Norman 22L (2x)

Stainless

Stainless

Titanium

Stainless

Stainless

Stainless

Hot Rolled

Stainless

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Cast Iron

Diamond

Stainless

Stainless

Diamond

Stainless

Stainless

Diamond

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