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SP-43 vs 240CC...

Jay Cee

Hot Rolled
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Location
North East Ohio
Let's get ready to rumble..... I have my pick of the two. Ummmm, decisions, decisions... Cost is not an consideration as after some dealing they both break down the same. Table size is not an consideration as I have bigger machines for anything that won't fit. I am looking for speed, Speed, SPEED, carbide finish, low maintenance, and ease of use. Anyone running these two side by side? Can the Makino cut titanium without bluing? Any and all input appreciated.
 
Hello Jay Cee,

You can very easily travel across the state line (Pennsylvania) and get the most experienced Carbide EDM machining feedback that will allow you to make an informed business decision. Western Pennsylvania is the largest concentration of high end carbide tooling companies. You will find it interesting to know they are primarily using AGIE, Charmilles and then Mitsubishi (Makino Who?).

Be careful, Makino is trying to enter the EDM market with the SP43 (made in Singapore) and selling it in the USA for $99,000. The travels of the Makino SP43 compares with the CH440CC at $155,000. You may want to take an honest evaluation of Makino CNC mills engineered and manufactured in Japan (V Series), compared to the EDM machiens and S Series mills that are made offshore, in Singapore.

Clearly, the Charmilles is more maintenance intensive than a Makino. Clearly Charmilles has more advanced EDM technology with 10 times the number of annual units sold in the USA and twice as many years in the EDM business.

The Charmilles customer support is superior to Makino's EDM support. You can think in these terms, Makino sold 40 EDM machines in the USA last year and Charmilles sold 423. Which company has a larger, more diversified and more experienced support staff? ? ? These machines are not even in the same class. The Charmilles machine is made in Switzerland and the Makino EDM is made in Singapore. As far as seeing them together in the same shop ... with only 41 machines sold last year, you will be hard pressed to find the Makino Wire EDM in many shops.

I have seen recent tests of Titanium and all of the EDM builders (AGIE, CHARMILLES, FANUC, MITSUBISHI and MAKINO) cut the 3" tall part without bluing. The range in times was 27 minutes to 43 minutes, holding the required .0005" total form tolerance. There definitely is a speed difference among the different builders. Clearly, the AGIE Progress cuts the fastest. AGIE's published maximum cut speed is the fastest published speed in the industry at 47 square inches per hour (Mitsubishi is the only other generator north of 40 square inches per hour).

As far as maintenance, the latest AGIE wire EDMs (AGIEVISION Wire EDM Systems) provide wire EDM System with the fewest moving parts in the complete wire drive system from the wire spool to the wire chopper. The unique single piece AGIE V-Guide holder allows for threading without any moving parts other than the wire rollers and brake wheel. This same 22 year old v-guide allows you to change wire diameters without touching the guide set up (20,000 hour guide life guarantee). Clearly, AGIE has the most refined and reliable wire threader. AGIE's reliable design is the only one with 22 years of field test experience. No parts to replace, no belts, no round guides, simply clean the v-guide every 150 hours or 500 hours in many customer cases.

All wire EDMs promote a total operating cost of $3-$6 per hour plus the wire spool. Generally speaking, each EDM brand will consume the same type of wire at the same speed. This speed may be adjusted on all of the machines. THE REAL COST OF OPERATING A WIRE MACHINE COMES IN THE FORM OF ATTENDED MACHINING AND UNEXPECTED MACHINE FAILURES. These costs are generally not discussed and quantified. For example, AGIE has a 3D touch probe that allows operators to run a job without indicating the workpiece in level to the machine table. This saves TIME, MONEY and TOOLING COST with every job set up. There are many operating time savings technologies that you may want to include in your machine comparison.

Most machines will deliver a .2RA finish in carbide with different cut speeds and varying degrees of cobalt depletion from the material. This is evident by the companies that use carbide tools in production. These production companies notice a difference in the wire EDM tool life, relative to each generator and in comparison to a ground finish. You may want to contact Crawley Tool, in TN. This is a large production form tool manufacturer with over 40,000 annual wire EDM hours, across 8 AGIE wire EDMs. This job shop makes form tools for companies all over North America.

When it comes to wire EDM technology, AGIE is clearly the leader with a written lifetime guarantee of .05 RA and 30 millionths part tolerance using .0008" diameter wire (AGIE VERTEX Wire EDM). You may learn more about the unique AGIE Wire EDM features on the following link. http://www.agieus.com/Exclusives.asp

FULL DISCLOSURE: I am a mechanical engineer with 12 years of AGIE EDM Working experience. We are the AGIE Dealer in Ohio and Kentucky. Everything that has been described in this response can easily be proven true and I would be happy to speak with you and show you a nearby AGIEVISION Wire EDM System. All AGIE Wire EDM Systems are made in Switzerland with the most attention to quality, reliability and overall longevity. The AGIE pricing since 2002 has been reduced to the mean of the market place; however, AGIE still provides machines that provide unique capabilities at uniquely high prices.


FYI: We have many AGIEVISION Wire EDM customers with Charmilles, Fanuc and Mitsubishi running side by side. No Makino Wire EDMs.

Good luck in your research. You would be impressed with the unique AGIE technology, given the time.

Sorry if you are offended by this response and AGIE promotion. It was too difficult to resist your tempting proposal.

Paul
 
What is the cost difference between a Charmilles and an Agie? They are both the same company. They must share the same technology. The way I see it an Agie is more to buy, but less on maintanance. So a Charmilles is a pay as you go type of deal. Charmilles is very easy to trouble shoot. Less gremlins than an Agie. What about a Chmer?? Lots of these being sold. I cut some titanium with my Charmilles 310 and it does blue.
Is there anything to worry about besides the discoloring? Can an Agie cut 12" with a 30 degree taper?
 
Hello Customill from Winnipeg,

The cost difference between the AGIE and CHARMILLES wire edm depends on the model comparison; however, it can be $10,000 to $30,000 depending on the model.

A man with your CH310 experience would gladly pay up, given the opportunity, for better seal design on your lower arm, threading without the tube, zero diamond guide cost, large wire spool, automatic workpiece probe, and less spare parts. There is no doubt you are paying as you go with more missed wire threads (lost time and delayed deliveries) and greater maintenance cost. The new Charmilles 240/440 (submerged) is not much different than your current machine.

AGIE and CHARMILLES are two EDM brands in the GEORGEFISCHER Group. They have as much in common as the SAAB, Saturn and Cadillac, owned by GM. Both brands are Swiss native and both brands manufacture exclusively in Switzerland.

Your Charmilles310 is probably close to 10 years old. Every EDM builder has evolved in the last 10 years. AGIE's current design provides less maintenance hicups due to fewer moving parts and results in greater unattended reliability.

Not sure about what AGIE EDM Models you are talking about with regard to Gremlins. This does not make sense to me, during my last 12 years of AGIE experience.

AGIE can cut 20" tall with 30 degree taper. PROGRESS 4 Wire EDM.

Chmer? Lots being sold? Thats unusual.

All the best, Paul
 








 
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