Fanuc vs. Mits

Not real happy with my WEDM and after much shopping I have narrowed my choices down to either a Fanuc or Mits. The Mits is pricier but has better market presence here. I am leaning Fanuc as I think it is a better machine and am pleased with the local distributor test cut results and price. Any Comments??

Thanks.

I tested both and the Fanuc came out on top. The test cut was a 14 inch high piece of 4140. One inch square, 3 straight sides, one with one half degree draft. I bought the machine new in July 2003. It has done well, not perfect but pretty darn good. It will hold less than .0001 all day long if it is maintained. I never ran or owned another brand though so I don't have a benchmark to compare it to. I did contact two houses with both brands, one prefered Fanuc, the other Mits.

G-Auto,
Have you looked at Sodick? I am new to the EDM industry and am in now way an authority on these machines. But I am the happy owner of a new Sodick AQ327L. I almost bought a Mits FA10, I had always looked a Mits as a very respectable name in the machine tool industry (and I still do). So when it was time to up grade my shop with an EDM I naturally went to Mits; plus my tool builder and EDM operator is very fluent with the FA10 so this was another no-brainer. Unfortunately they couldn’t follow through with the package they promised so I had to turn elsewhere. The fact that my employee also ran a Sodick back in the 90’s made them the next choice. The first thing that struck me was how prominently Sodick displayed the guts of there machine in their brochure, I didn’t remember Mits doing this and then I saw why this may have been, the Mits has a much smaller base that the table hangs over much the way a vertical mill is designed. I’m not saying that this makes the Mits a bad machine, I just felt that the larger base is a better platform for holding tolerance over time. It did kind of bother me that Mits didn’t really show what is under the cover of their EDM. When you look at other big name machine builders they have no problem showing what’s under the cover.

Page 4 of this Bridgeport brochure shows the guts of their machine.
http://hardinge.com/usr/pdf/milling/1347_P3SERIES.pdf

The Hardinge brochure is full of breakdowns of their machine.
http://hardinge.com/usr/pdf/turning/1193H_Quest.pdf

Sodick’s home page shows the guts right away:
http://www.sodick.com/

As for the Mits the guts are no where to be found:
http://www.mitsubishi-world.com/


I only saw it because the Sodick salesmen had a picture of it, and when I tried to talk to the Mits salesmen about this fact he actually got a little aggressive about how I knew what the guts of a Mits looked like, which really seemed strange. All this said, I would have bought the Mits if they could have followed through with the package I needed and I’m sure I would have been quite happy with the machine. One feature that the Sodick has that seem to be the cat’s you know what is the linear motor which does away with ball screws or couplings, eliminating backlash. My operator is also impressed with the machine, it has some other features he says that make it easer and faster to use than the FA10.

Please don’t jump on me for saying these things I just wanted to put in my honest humble opinion and experience with buying an new EDM, my intention is not to nock anyone’s machine. I believe even Sodick had some not so hot years in the late 90’s with quality problems so I have heard. Again I hope I haven’t offended anyone.

Humbly submitted.
Ed

Fanuc

Fanuc

Mits. We work with .0001" 80% of our work, and the Mits doe's it all day everyday. We have a 1995 SX10, 1996 FX20, and a 2004 FA20P. I just got done with slots 9" depth of cut in CPM M4 cavity bars, hold them to a total of .0003" belly, with out much tweeking. Most the major manufactures of WEDM make good machines, pick the one your comfortable with, and don't look back!

Bill

So I have 3 Fanuc, 1 Mits and 1 Sodick. I appreciate all of your feedback and honesty. I will leave this up a bit longer to see if I get any other feedback. I'll admit many machines are capable of doing a good job, BillDe make a great point which is pick one and don't look back. The one thing I will say is I had a Fanuc Demo on a 2 yr old machine and I was amazed at how the auto threader seemed bullet proof. I am looking for something that will work for me while I'm gone and I did receive some negative info about the Mits' threader. Any one with any feed back on that?

Patriot, thanks for the Sodick plug. Seem like a decent machine but I wanted to only consider 2 as a person can shop themselves to death. I will inquire about the "guts" of both machines.

This is very interesting to me, as I am also considering a new wire machine. Having no experience at all with one makes it a little scary - if only they didn't cost so much!

I've narrowed it down to Charmilles, Sodick and Fanuc. Mitsubishi just dropped the dealer I had been talking with, so they are out for now.

The Charmilles and Sodick do seem to have a more substantial build and the machine weights support that. The Sodick AQ327 is 7,500# and the Charmilles 240SL is 5,400#. The Fanuc Alpha 0iC (10" Z) is only 4,200# but is also slightly smaller in travels. That seems like a big edge for Sodick, but then again, how heavy does a machine that has essentially zero cutting force have to be?

Lots and lots of praise out on the internet for the Fanuc auto threader. Some grumbling about the price and frequency of Mits and Charmilles parts purchases.

What to do?!?

The Fanuc auto threader is/was the best on the market. That was a major factor in my decision. I don't know if the others have caught up since 2003, but back then it was no contest.

I like mits...
Fanuc is okay...
Sodick sucks...

I've never run a Fanuc. The older Mits I run now is an FX10K, and the threader sucks. Suppousedly the newer FA models are improved.

I know it's not what you asked, but if I weren't paying for it out of my own pocket, I'd want an Agie

Cheers!

Roy Solomon

Jay Cee,

Why do you say Sodick sucks? I only didn't consider them because I needed an extended height Z axis and they didn't offer one at the time. A couple shops around here have them and like them a lot.

Yeah, why the knock on Sodick? They are one of the four that I am considering and I would be interested to hear any thing about them that you would care to share.

I have been a mits user for 17 years (several generations of machines), but I would agree that there are several very good machines out there. My final decision was made by the applications department. Very important for new users. If you have good aplications support and are a stickler for preventive maintenence (filters, resin, guides, contacts) I think you will find very little difference in the machines. A distributor that has been selling that machine for a while is also important. I second the don't look back!
RJT

I have run Mits for over ten years and have found them to be excelent machines. I also have a friend who runs bolth Mits and Fanuc he likes the Fanuc better but says the Mits is faster and just as acurate, but the wire threder is far better. His Mits is ten years old I have run an FA10V one of the latest models and the auto threder is almost as good as the Fanuc (.03 hole 6" thick on the second try) take you pick. I agre dont look back. Good luck.

We run 8 Fanucs in a range of 2 to 6 years old and they are just very accurate reliable wires.
Follow the routine maintenance and they just run and thread, and run and thread all day long... Every Day.
The controls and features are for real world use and simple to operate. No Mits experiance here, but I have heard more bad than good on their machines in the last 10 years and 90% of what I hear from other Fanuc shops around me is that they are as happy as I am.
We had an old old makino wire (pre 95) and a Hitachi up until 2000 and went with Fanuc and entered into a whole new world of productivity.
We are however looking into a new makino for a large machine to do work that our Fanucs could not accomodate do to size limitations.

Roysol - your FX-10 threader issues can easily be avoided with weekly maintenance. I too was beyond pissed with it's initial performance. After a year of working with the machine I found that REGULAR maintenance and clean wire stopped all of my issues. It's been a few years but I think I remember the upper heads aspirator was one of the major culprits.

Mold Man and Mike K - Sodick... The name says it all but I will give details... I refer to the newer machines here. I have no experience on the older models.
Major components are made of plastic. Not just for insulating purposes either.. I think I could probably pick the machine up with one arm.
The on board Esprit software that they advertise as such a great deal is an absolute joke compared to the real deal. It's the game boy version of Nintendo. Damn near useless.
The threading tubes are way to susceptible to bending. At a cost of $150 each the price can rack up quick. Even the slightest bend renders them useless.
There is a parameter that actually turns on U and V to control unwanted taper on tall parts. How about this???... How about we fix the problem instead of moving U & V to compensate for it. What is it? A water jet??...
Support/training is a joke!!! I went through the headaches of both.
The wire evacuation is ridiculous. Wire is constantly getting stuck in the tube. Especially if you try and run a short piece through.
Book settings aren't even close. I have had offsets be more than .001 off. I'm not saying that all setting should be accurate to a tenth, but Mits, Fanuc, Charmilles, and Makino don't seem to have a problem doing it... Heck, I ran a Japax that was within .0004 right out of the book.
Cutting speeds are slow compared to what can be had now a days.
There is a reason the price of these machines are so cheap compared to other machines. It's because they are cheap compared to other machines. Worst machines I have ever touched... That includes my 1978 Hitachi's. Of course this is all just my opinion...
About the only thing I do like is the power feed contacts. You can get a million uses out of one. Of course I think they borrowed the design from Fanuc.

Well ok Jay Cee. I guess that answers that question! Thank you.

According to each manufacturer's web site,

A Fanuc 0IC-10, 12.6x8.7x8.7 travel takes an 1,100LB part, and weighs 4,200LBs.

A Mits FA10S, 13.7x9.8x8.6 travel, takes an 1,100LB part, and weighs 4,400 LBs.

A Charmilles 240cc, 13.8x8.7x8.7, takes a 1,650Lb part, and weighs 5,390LBs.

A Makino U32J has no weight listed that I could find.

A Sodick AQ327L, 15x11x10, takes an 1,100 LB part, and weighs 7,480LBs.

I agree with JayCee regarding the embedded software that Sodick promotes. I only took a brief glance at the Esprit in a wire, but I looked closely at a sinker with Solidworks, and their marketing is mis-leading.

I would be glad to go into detail, and they have an interesting concept, but the bottom line is, if you want to use that functionality, you pretty much need a stand-alone off-line seat of Solidworks.

In this thread , Dave Haven and Mits Tech are discussing the straightness compensation feature available on the Mits FA20S. I've never run a machine with this feature, but it's another interesting concept.

Since the mechanism of taper on tall parts is wire wear, this is not something intrinsically wrong with any particular machine that can be "fixed". It's inherent to EDM. Whether you can truly compensate for it this way, I'd like to know.

I was at Sodick's New Jersey center last week, and although I didn't look at every component, my general impression was there is a lot of stainless, in places that are brass on my Mits FX10K, and favorably comparable to Agie's I've run(and liked).

I think every machine has certain areas of weakness, for example, the lower nozzle on my Mits is ceramic, and I've gone through three of them in the 4 years I've run this machine. They're not cheap. I've rebuilt the wire chopper more times than I can count, even buying an aftermarket version, since the OEM design is so bad.

But I'm not saying someone should not buy a Mits. I believe every machine has a niche, it depends on the type of work you're doing, the type of shop, and the type of operator. I wasn't here when they bought these machines, but I'd be hard pressed to say it was a mistake.

For the record, I've never run a Sodick, nor do I have any dog in the fight over who buys what from whom.

Cheers!

Roy Solomon

On further review,

Perhaps a better comparison WRT weight would be the AQ300L, 11.8x7.8x7.8 travel, takes a 660LB part, and weighs 5,940LBs.

Still more than the others

Cheers!

Roy Solomon