Thinking about getting a Sinker

ARB · May 24, 2007

Our shop is thinking about getting a sinker of our own. We would be using it do cavity work on injection molds for our products. All of the parts that we build molds for would fit in the palm of your hand. These are plugs for aluminum extrusions.

Right now we mill our cavities and work around not having an EDM. Sometimes you just can't mill a .080" wide slot .625 deep.

Can a 30 amp machine do a respectable job? Or do I need to be up closer to 75. Ultimate speed is not a big issue. Reliablility and parts availability are bigger concerns.

This is a machine that will do a fair share of dust collection too. We don't have alot of this type of work so we don't want to spend the farm either. It has been a long time (15 Years) since I ran a EDM myself so things are a little foggy.

Would something like this work for our needs?
http://www.actionmachinery.com/writeups/15556.htm

Here is another from same dealer.
http://www.actionmachinery.com/writeups/12495.htm

Can a decent machine for my needs be had for $10-$15K?

Thanks

ARB

Hollistergc · May 24, 2007

30 Amps is plenty for the parts you describe.
I can't comment on the machines you link to as I have absolutely no familiarity with them.

As long as you don't need CNC capability, ATC's and such you should be able to find a good machine in that price range. There's a 1999 Charmilles on ebay right now that has a BIN only slightly higher than that (not that I am recommending that machine but it looks pretty good).

Just depends on the nature of the work as to which machines might fill your need. If you do a lot of small gates and blades you might want something with a little more technology in the generator and orbiting capability.

Do you job out EDM work now?

Let's see what some of the other guys have to say

ARB · May 24, 2007

I have the one on Ebay on my watch list already.

Chamilles is a more recognizable name that is for sure.

BrianH · May 25, 2007

The Charmilles Form 20 is a good, small imported sinker (can be found sold by other companies) but I really liked the control Charmilles put on theirs. Lots of programs and a programmable Z; not the greatest arc detection but still a good machine.

roysol · May 25, 2007

Be very careful about buying an "orphan".

If you can not get parts and tech support, the cheapest machine could cost you a lot of money. Be sure you are getting ALL the manuals that came with the machine. Imagine that the only information you're going to get is already on hand.

30 amps is more than enough for small burns, I have a 60 amp generator, and rarely use more than 10, even when roughing.

Cheers!

ARB · May 25, 2007

Would the two machines at Action be considered orphans?

roysol · May 25, 2007

I would say yes. I've never heard of either of them, and google turns up nothing useful. It's possible that they are a more common machine that was re-branded. Some manufacturers distributed their machines under several different names. You need to know this in advance.

This forum and other edm specific ones are full of people who bought a used machine, and they don't know how to hook it up, program it, operate it, maintain it, or repair it.

Imagine your control needs it's system software re-loaded. If they gave you a disk, maybe now it's bad. What do you do then? Same thing with circuit boards. Unless you have board level schematics (you won't), when one goes bad, you're screwed.

If you can't buy a new machine from the manufacturer in question, that should raise red flags. It may be a case with say Elox, for example, where they sold a lot of them, and there is still non-factory support available from a couple of people. Even with a company that's still in business, at some point they stop supporting their oldest models.

I'm not trying to discourage you from buying a used machine, only pointing out the perils. Caveat emtor

5 axis Fidia guy · May 25, 2007

I don't want to start an argument here, but we have 6 edm machines and most of the time they sit empty, the reason is because we mill everything we possible can, including ribs in hard steel that you just described. My personal best is a rib in heat treated H-13 48-50 R.C. that was .040 wide by .850 deep about 1.00 long.. It can be done. Before I would spend the cash on an edm machine I would seriously look at why your having troubles with cutting the ribs in the first place. I would be happy to give you some names and contacts of tool application guys that could help out. I could cut the rib I just described in hard steel before you could even get your electrodes mounted on the holder.

Hollistergc · May 25, 2007

No arguments here, Everything is relative... Depends on the equipment you have vs the part/cavity configuration. If it can be satisfactorily machined on a mill it should be...

ARB · May 25, 2007

Good info! I found the same with the 2 machines that Action has. Nothing turned up in searches. Makes me pretty leary.

As you say Fidia guy this machine will sit most of the time. In the last year I have had just a couple of jobs that really needed EDM. There are times when it can't really be avoided. The mold cavities that I am working on now will be pretty challenging to machine due to the part shape. I may take a stab at milling a set of cavities to see how it goes. This mold is 8 up and the EDM quote was 9500. That got me thinking that maybe it is time to have a machine of our own.

I do want to be careful not to buy a white elephant.

Thanks for the input guys.

What machine makers are more likely to support their machinery that is 10-15 years old?

.

ARB · May 25, 2007

Oh I forgot.
Fidia, Who's long skinny cutters do you use?

Hollistergc · May 25, 2007

Agie, Elox, Charmilles (all the same company now).
Not too sure on the others. But others will know

Greg

5 axis Fidia guy · May 29, 2007

ARB,, for rib cutters I run exclusively OSG. They make many sizes, flat ends, radius ends, ball ends along with many diffrent tapers. I was told and shown I might add, that if they offer a rib cutter the size that would work for you then it can be cut into hard steel. They are pricey, but well worth it, I have used some of tools cutting ribs overnite, sometimes in the cut for 6 or 7 hours on H-13. Well worth spending 90$ on a tool verses making trodes and burning the rib.. I might add that after cutting ribs with their tools the ribs require NO draw polishing for most plastic parts.. another HUGE $$$ savings.

ARB · May 30, 2007

What kind of DOC are you taking with a .080Ø cutter? Can you go .01 deep in tool steel?

I will have to check into these cutters.

On the EDM note I think it would still be a good thing for us to have one for some things that we want to do with our molds but shy away from.

I think I will keep my eyes open for a decent Charmilles.

Would this have been a keeper?

Charmilles on Ebay

ARB

5 axis Fidia guy · May 30, 2007

Using the method that works for me is more the "high speed machining" way of thinking. I would run a .08 dia. tool about 18000 rpm's at a feed of around 110 inch per min, with a depth of cut per pass of around .002-.003 per pass. I have successfully cut ribs on our Hurcos in the past with only 8000 rpm's using the same theory only slowing down the feed rate to hold the required chip load. Depending how deep you have to go, I would start the rib with a short tool and work my way to full depth. Usually I go in a rib with at least 2 tools. You want to keep the doc. small to avoid any tool deflection, if you get the rib cutter deflecting then its going to cut oversize. I also will add thay even though my ribs might end up with a sharp bottom,, I ALWAYS start the rib with a full ball end to get it to the bottom.. then clean it up with a flat endmill. I always use air-oil mist when cutting and NEVER coolant.

ARB · May 30, 2007

Thanks alot for the tips 5! I might have to break out the speeder head and give it whirl.

5 axis Fidia guy · May 30, 2007

Check out www.velocitytools.com They also make rib cutters that are quite a bit cheaper, although not quite as good as far as quality compared to OSG. There is a application deta area on their site for cutting ribs,, speeds and feeds stepdowns, etc... I use their chart exclusively for running my rib cutters. These are conservitive starting points, and if I can give you one bit of quick advice, keep your tool runout as close to zero as possible, shrink fit is best, but if you use a collet, be sure to check them with an indicator. The pros will tell you for every .0001 of tool runout you have that will decrease your tool life by about 10%. I have found this to be pretty accurate.

ARB · Aug 15, 2007

Let me put this another way.

If you had 15-20k to spend and needed a 30 amp ram machine what would you buy?

We need to get a machine but I don't want to get burned.

What about a new Sharp?

About 18K new?

This is bigger.

Agie Mondo

???

I need help fellas.

James W · Oct 27, 2007

Ive seen that sharp machine sell at an auction a couple months ago for 1000 dollars, if you are still looking for one ill keep my eyes out for a good deal.

roysol · Oct 27, 2007

I don't know too much about the Sharp, but I've run an Agie Mondo 20 ( the next smaller model), and it's a pretty good machine, and still well supported.

Neither of those machines has a tool changer. I can't tell what's on the end of the ram for either of them, the pictures are not showing up for the Agie. The Sharp looks like it might have a 3R chuck on it (good).

The Sharp looks like a fairly manual machine, switches and knobs to change power supply settings, which you would get out of a book, and handwheels for positioning X/Y, with a Z limit switch depth stop.

The Agie is a full CNC, the Futura II control is pretty good. It has a simple system for figuring out settings built into the control, and full XYZ CNC control with a good selection of orbit patterns.

The single digit Agie models (Mondo 1,2,3) are non-CNC versions of the 10,20,30 models, similar to the Sharp. The 20 that you linked to has ended, but I see there is a 30 on Ebay now, ending 11-5-07, here.

Cheers!

Roy Solomon

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