Refit for an older CNC machine

Hi,

I have been researching the feasability of updating my Deckel FP4NC. The present controller is a Grundig Dialog 4 and although it works fine there are many limitations with this older system.

In my research I have come across an interesting company called Camsoft http://www.cnccontrols.com/.

Camsoft seems to have a good product that I am thinking of buying. The cost seems reasonable and they claim to have installed thousands of systems. My question is, has anyone on this board had any experience with a Camsoft conversion.

Well...hmmmmm....
I have a FP2NC and had considered the same thing, so I'll save you some trouble.

It *can* be done, but it is very hard to do.
Your servos/controller run on tach/generator combined with linear encoder feedback.
This is a very hard system to retrofit.

You can find little devices to convert tach/gen to the output needed for a aftermarket servo drive, but you'd need them both ways, and of different makes, and all sorts of other big question marks.
On top of that, your servos are something like 196 volts, so there are very few options for drives other than the factory Bosch. Some drives that will run 196v are either outdated unipolor, or very expensive.

Now, the "easy" way would be to just change out the servo's...yes!...well, no. your Z axis drive (the one that's vertical behind the panel on the left) is coupled through a very interesting right/angle transmission to the handwheel. Just looking at it present severe challenges in retrofitting a "generic" aftermarket servo. This stuff was definately custom made.

Now... on top of all of that, no aftermarket PC control offers the cool manual "shop-floor" features that your Dialogsteurung does. If you jumped through all the hoops to retrofit it, you would gain some CNC functionality, but you would lose tremendous amounts of what makes the NC series so cool.

If you simply must have more capability, I would suggest trying to find...somewhere in the world... the latest model Dialog control that you could (12?).

Hope this helps.

Feel free to post in the Deckel forum for Deckel questions in the future.

Regards
Sean

Oh... one more thing...
If you do end up going the retrofit route, I would be interested in your Dialog 4 control.
Please keep my email handy in this case, or feel free to email me off-list to discuss your options.

Sean

Sean,

If I understand your comments correctly, some of what you say is true. The encoders are analog and would require an A/D converter. The cost for this is ~$350USD per axis.

However, the servo control seems easier than you say it is with the Camsoft approach. I am told that a single PC mounted card which supports: Servo AC, DC, Velocity mode, Current mode, Brush, Brushless, PWM, Stepper or Hydraulic.(taken from the Camsoft website)

This allows you to keep your existing motors and amps.

This Camsoft approach seems more efficeint to me however, I have just started researching the idea of upgrading.

In the meantime, you are quite right about the Dialog 4 controller it has many good attributes and for now its works well. I plan to keep this machine around for years to come. I am researching the refit option because I expect the excellent mechnical component of this mill to outlast the controls and electronics.

Thanks for the comments.

Prototype: Saw your post, I too have an FP4 w/Dialog4 control. I have been running this control for the last 12+ years and hardly a problem.I find it very capible. The only problem i find with it is the processing speed , that becomes an issue when running a program produced by a CAM system such as SurfCam.(generates tons of point to point moves) The real limit of this machine is the spindle speed, at 3150 the slow control becomes less of an issue. What is your complaint with this system? The thing to remember about controls that use a PC as their base, is like home PC's they can crash...can have big problems with a tool moving to rapid "Z". Real controls such as the grundeg are hard programmed in their E-Proms and their systems have more redundant safety features!

Sean suggests that you upgrade to "say the Dialog12 control...Not realy. The Dialog 12 system is an AC servo system and not easily changed. I have had quotes from FPS in Germany to retro my FP4 to Dialog 12 but the cost is in the range of 30-40 K and they would not do it in the field,so....I am going to keep my Dialog 4 for now. If you decide to pitch the dialog 4 please let me know, I would be interested in buying the old control....Thanks Ross Cummings

[This message has been edited by AlfaGTA (edited 12-14-2002).]

AlfaGTA,

I am researching this refit for a few reasons. Support for this controller will eventually dry up. As you say, machining complex surfaces is a slow/inefficient process with the Dialog 4. Also, a large G-code file has to be broken up to accomodate the small on-board controller memory. Unlike your machine my FP4 has a two speed option so I have up to 6300RPM spindle speeds.

For now the controller is adequate and as Sean mentioned there are superior "shop-floor" canned cycles that make the Deckel really useful for quick on-the-spot programming.

I have looked into drip feeding this machine and I am fairly certain that this is not possible. Although there is an extra electronic connector that I have not yet identified. Possibly this is a tape reader input?? If that is true maybe I could get a behind the tape reader (BTR) to feed the Deckel really big files.

I'll let you know what I learn about refitting the Deckel as you say this may not be the best option. Too bad the Dialog controller upgrade is so expensive

PS: Since you brought up the topic of motors. I wonder if you can tell me if the DC motors need to be serviced on a regular basis. I'd be interested in hearing if there is anything one should watch for on the FP4 in terms of mechanical problems.

Prototype: The main service problem with DC servos is asas any DC motor. Keep your eye on the brushes, don,t let them get too short or arcing to the comutator will happen. also the "taco" needs cleaning from time to time. The rest is pretty bullet proof.
As to drip feeding your control, the only way that i know to do this is with the DNC feature (option). On the Dialog 4 the You need a different communications board (sorry i don't remember the number) and sone special software. The way it all works is that the software takes your large program and breaks it down into small groups with "bookmarks" at the start and end of each group. The Base program is called from the control to start the operation under DNC . The Compuuter sends out the first of the program "groups". At this point you must set the control ...Select the program, enter the tool store information ect. After a delay (gives you time to enter all the required informatoion, set your tool lengths etc, the computer starts loading the control's memory with successive program "groups". You start running the program on the machine. As the program is run and the "groups " are used the control will erase the memory and call for new groups to follow. This will continue until all "groups have been used.
It sounds cumbersome, but i have this feature and after i figgured out the software it works pretty slick.
There are some problems however....The software is from a German company...Beritz i believe...and it must run in DOS....Real DOS not an emulator such as found in windows 2000! The program must load memory resident to work . I am running Win2000 with a seperate primary partition that has DOS, and i use a dual boot scheme!

This conversion was purchased from FPS in Germany. They provided the software and the com card for the control! Hope this helps. As with all things Deckel, there is the way that most everyone does it , and there is the Deckel way....Ross

Doug,

I agree with your assessment of Camsoft. I have found it difficult to pin them down about details and costs. This is most likely due to the fact that I would do the conversion and CNC Deckels, at least in North America, are considered a relatively uncommon machine. As far as I know there has been no Camsoft conversion on any older Deckel CNCs. As you can see by visiting the Camsoft website the costs are easier to estimate if they do the work for you, except for the per diem if the job stretches due to unforeseen problems.

The ballpark estimate I was able to get was ~$3500USD for me to convert the FP4NC with Dialog 4 to a Camsoft system. Sounds good however, I have taken comments by Sean and Ross seriously.

One positive aspect that came out thanks to Ross’s input is that I may be able to “drip feed” my machine. The previous owner of my mill said that he had tried and failed to get this option to work. If I can implement “drip feed” the Dialog 4 controller may have a better chance of hanging off the side of the FP4 for longer. I will delay the conversion until one of two things happen.

One, if the controller fails and it can’t be repaired or two, someone can say they have successfully made such a conversion and the results are worth the effort. I expect neither of these will happen in the near future.

I have been in contact with Deckel and replacement parts for the Dialog 4 are still available. I was quoted a price of ~$500 for a replacement motherboard so the replacement costs seem reasonable for the electronics.

As I learn more about the Dialog 4 controller I find there are many useful programming features that if properly used will make for efficient use of the this hardware. The problem is that I have to generate the canned cycle code manually so it can be time consuming.

I use Bobcad V18 software to generate G-code. So far have been unsuccessful in getting them to implement the canned cycles into their post processor. I have been going back and forth with them since October last year! If they eventually get me a fully functional post processor the Dialog will be a very useful controller.

Ray

hello everyone
i have a facility to repair all kinds of electronic cards for dialog2, dialog 3,dialog 4 and all dialog series plus and kind of deckel cards. i also have a huge inventory of electronic cards and deckel accesories. if anyone needs my services. let me know.

pm HuFlungDung AKA Murray. He has a lathe that he did a Camsoft retro on and really knows that control inside and out, wrote all the ladder logic and did it all himself. He can give you a really solid pro / con opinion.

Check out actek

posted 12-02-2002 06:39 PM

Here......

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/?yguid=93890204


Art is writing a plugin to interface his software to the Galil line of motion control boards.


dan k

Hello Prototype,

As some the others above me have posted visit the Deckel part of this site you will find alot of info. You will also note most guys are very friendly an willing to help.

I am the Deckeldoctor I have been looking for other lower price controls to retrofit.I have the following that I can offer.

If I can be of help please contact me. I cover all of N america for Deckel service.

Heidenhain has come out with new TNC 320 control which is less than the current top of the line TNC i530. I am working on quotes for the 320 and the 530 for some other PM members.I have been installing the 410,426 currently onto the deckels.

In my spare time(hahaha) I am working on a lower price control so that it may be availabe to a wider range of people and home shops. The price is still going to be 15k to 25K though depending on how much you want to upgrade. The lower end would be keeping the Bosch Servo Drive which has 8 circuit boards that are 15-20 years old or upgrade to my new Servo package which is 3 boards total. It would be possible to do it in steps control first then servos so that it's not so much at one time.

I have also offered for a Heidenhain that a customer can by pieces and parts as budget allows and once all is accumulated then I can do retrofit which takes 100 hrs start to finish.

I usually do this in 14 days at a customers site! If the machine is shipped to me I can do the retrofit quicker working out of my own shop with no interruptions and having all my tools at my disposal.

Then you would save the money of me having to live in a hotel for 2 weeks plus expenses and airfare and rental car if necessary.
This expense would be a trade off for the shipping of you machine and electrical cabinet to me plus you would still probably save 2-3k.

All of my retrofits come with full set of new electrical prints!! It is necessary for you to sign a nondisclosure agreement that you or your company will not reuse my retrofit to produce other copies of my work or PLC program!!

I currently have a FP3NC with Heidenhain 410 with manual compound table for sale 30K. Machine has all new relays and breakers.Scales have been serviced. For another 5K it could have new Servo drive package. It is being sold with 6 month warranty. It is under power and ready for test cuts or your inspection.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/6/1056.html


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y155/doctordeckel/P2030062.bmp
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y155/doctordeckel/P2030064.bmp
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y155/doctordeckel/3189fa5c.bmp


Regards
DD