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Haas SL-30 Drilling a 1" hole

Afs Machine

Plastic
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Location
Texas
I'm Drilling 8 1" holes (bolt hole pattern) on a flange. The flange is 2" thick but my live tooling motor keeps overheating and alarming out.
I've tried drilling them all almost to depth then coming back around and breaking through but it still alarms out after a few holes.
live tooling rpm-900
feed rate- .9
any suggestions? good feed and speeds to run?
 
I'd say your feed is way low at .001/rev. Haven't ever run a carbide insert in a spade, but on a 1" HSS spade the feed would be about 10 times that amount as a minimum. That said, increasing your feed ups the horsepower requirement, so that's not going to solve your problem. I've never looked up the numbers, but have always had the impression that a spade is second only to a U drill in requiring a lot of horsepower.

I drill a lot of 1" holes thru mild steel 2 to 2.5" thick for a product I make. I use a standard HSS drill ground to a 130* point angle with the point split and the cutting lips stoned just enough to remove the sharp edge. Running in a Series II cnc Bridgeport at 400 rpm and feeding 5 ipm, I get at least 450 holes between regrinds. The BP has a 4hp spindle and the drill doesn't come anywhere near fully loading it. Its low tech, but the feed is heavy enough to break the chips nicely, and I'm drilling thru 2" in less than 30 seconds where your current feedrate would take over 2 minutes.

To qualify all the above, none of my lathes have live tool capability so I don't have any idea of the typical horsepower or torque available. It could be that there's just not enough torque available to run any type of 1" drill at a decent feed rate.
 
If this spec sheet for the SL 30 is correct, you only have 5 hp and 132 in-lbs of torque available. I’m not sure how they rate those horse power verses duty cycle. And if you develop full power by 900 rpm.

http://www.haascnc.com/LATHE_specs.asp?ID=29#CNCLatheTreeModel

I’m thinking at 1” and carbide, your going to eat into that in a hurry. I was looking for a power calculator for spade drills. I couldn’t find one. Maybe some one with ME Pro could look it up.

What I did find, which you might find interesting is this.
http://www.retention-knob.com/products_tips_sfhhs.htm#carbide

Note the recommendation for low & medium carbon steels in that 1" range start at 0.012” per rev. Whilst I’m guessing you wont have the power to pull that off, I’d be upping your feed rate to get it cutting and chip breaking. The decrease in hole making time might keep the motor from alarming.

You said its over heating. I’d be punching them faster, so it doesn’t have time to heat up. If you get to the stage where its overloading, then back off.

Met’l makes a good point about using a conventional drill. Your only 2 x diameter deep. You might not like the chips though. Think about pecking it or dwelling. I make nice pocket money as a side line, reconditioning live tool holders. Those little gears and bearings don’t like big thrust applications. I believe the spades take far more thrust & power to make cut.

Regards Phil.

(Adding on Edit)

Do Haas offer their driven tooling with different ratio gearing? I’m having a run on WTO live tools from one customer. They seem to have a multitude of different ratio’s available. Thinking out loud, you might be better off with a 2:1 geared live tool, so your motors singing and you get more available torque. Still a balancing act if you only have 5 H.P

The other thing I can think off, if the spade holder is interchangeable with H.S.S coated tips, you might try those. The extra sharpness might fade off some of the power requirements.
 
I'd say Phil found the problem and its lack of power. 132 in-lb of torque is 11 ft lbs. The 5hp is really immaterial since this appears to be a constant torque drive and not constant horsepower. In other words, the torque doesn't increase proportionally as the speed decreases, so when you're down in the speed range for drilling 1" holes you've likely got something like 1 hp available. That's not enough to pull any 1" drill at a good feed rate.

I'd look into using an annular cutter such as a Rotabroach. They're made for low hp applications and make nice holes. The question on any annular cutter would be reliability of slug ejection. If they can guarantee that, the tool will put the holes in without any horsepower problems.

As Phil said, the thrust required on a spade is extremely high in comparison to a twist drill. I've got a 3" oil hole twist drill and a 3" spade that I've used at various times in roughing holes on my 4A Warner & Swasey. The difference in thrust jumps right out at you when the drills are this big. The twist drill just hums right along with no real noticable effects, but the spade makes the turret push for all its worth, particularly in 4140 or 4340.

I remember a guy saying in another forum that they'd tried drilling multiple 7/8 holes in mild steel with the live tools on their small Mazak Integrex, and that they decided pretty quick they were so close to the limit all the time that it was just a matter of time til they did some major damage, so they quit drilling those holes on that machine.

Added after reading Phil's last edit: 2:1 gearing would be a tremendous help because it would double the torque you have now.
 
unless there is a specific reason to drill in the machine for critical alignment, I'd drill a spot or a pilot and take it to a radial drill...think big massive real motors and chips you can cut your lawn with...
 
This is going to be just slightly off topic. Sorta...
I have a job in my SL10. Pushing a 1 1/4 inch spade drill 3.4 into 4130. 534 rpm and .008 per rev.
The load meter is hovering at 122% and the KW meter on the control is right at 1.9KW. (the Z axis load is about 80%) Now I had always understood .75 KW to be 1 HP. That would be a 2 1/2 HP cut and it's at 122%?????????

Must be Haaaas Power.
Somebody explain that to me.
 
Jim

Your figures are right. KW x 1.33 = HP (close enough for estimation purposes anyway).

This is the same thing I was saying up above about constant horsepower versus constant torque. Its also one of those places where peak horsepower ratings are demonstrated to be less than honest, and, when combined with a non-geared headstock, can lead to a machine running out of power pretty quick at low speeds.

If you look at the max available torque on your Haas and do some simple multiplying and dividing, you'll immediately know how much horsepower you have at any given speed thats equal to or greater than the rpm where the max torque occurs. Below that rpm, the available torque will be somehing less than the max amount, so the available HP will be even less.

Lets say your lathe has 20hp, 4000rpm max speed, and a non-geared headstock. For simplicity, assume the drive will develop max torque at 200 rpm and remain constant from there to max speed. Because HP is a product of speed and torque, the available HP varies linearly with speed. Translated, that says if you've got 20hp at 4000rpm, you'll have 10hp at 2000rpm, 5hp at 1000rpm, and 2.5hp at 500rpm.

To demonstrate the effect of a multispeed headstock and its effect on available power, I'll use my LC30 because I know the speed ranges without looking them up. It has 4 ranges which top out at 200, 550, 1100, and 3000rpm. Its got a 22kw (30hp) spindle motor, so a casual glance would say its got 1.5 times the power of the direct drive 20hp lathe up above. But, in the 550 range it develops full torque at about 200 rpm. The torque then remains constant and horsepower increases with speed until the speed reaches 550rpm. So, at 500rpm it should develop about 90% of max hp, or 27hp. What looked like a difference of 50% at first glance turns out to be not even close. One lathe has 2.5hp at 500rpm and the other has 27hp, so the difference is 1100% instead of 50%. Since the rpm is the same in both cases, the torque has to be 11 times as much. So, when the Haas loadmeter hits 100%, the LC30's loadmeter will be around 10%.

Peak readings come into play in the following manner. IIRC, I've seen numbers that say a 20hp Haas spindle is good for about 12hp on a continuous duty basis. The LC30's 30hp is a continuous rating. Lathes get into cuts where continuous hp is important much more often than mills do. Once again, the first glance comparison was deceptive. Instead of having 50% more hp, the 30hp lathe has 2 1/2 times as much continuous hp when both are running in high gear at 1 to 1 drive ratios thru the headstock.

Obviously, to state that my LC30 has more power than a SL-10 would rate a major Well Duhhhh, but I used its numbers since they're already in my head. As can easily be seen, the comparative numbers are deceptive on their face.

Personally, I think there should be some requirement that all lathes be rated according to standard machine tool duty ratings. Those ratings would list the continuous horsepower and the horsepower which can be utilized for 30 minutes out of each hour. Its fine with me if someone wants to believe a Craftsman shop-vac really has 6.5 horsepower, but those sorts of numbers games have no place in machine tools where the buyer expects to be able to remove metal and produce parts based on realistic power ratings.

Sorry for the long winded explanation, but its a subject that rates something more than a couple half-assed one liners that really don't help anyone understand the subject :D
 
PBMW, you're not the only one. My "30"hp VF-2SS runs at 130% on a .125" deep facemill cut in 1018 and MEPro sais the same cut should take 9hp. :rolleyes: :mad:
 
The HAAS load meter does not read power. It reads current and that is approximately proportional to torque.

The equation for power is
HP = RPM * T / 5252
for RPM in revolutions per minute, torque in #-ft, and HP in horsepower. 746 W = 1 HP.

Power is at the point where you measure RPM and Torque. If a torque transducer is built into the toolholder so that it directly measures the torque to the tool, then you have a good measure of the power to the tool. If you measure the torque at the motor output, then there may be considerable loss of power as heat between the motor and the tool and your power measuremnt at the motor will not be a good indicator of what is at the tool. Especially the case at high RPM. This also means that the torque to the tool will be less than that calculated from the torque at the motor and the gear ratio.

.
 
That seems like a big drill for live tooling on a lathe. There are a lot of machining center features that can be machined on a live tooling lathe, but when you start getting into bigger tools, I've always thought you should still put it in a machine that's actually made to do that job. But, I understand if that job will be complete after this and never needs to see a machining center, then you will probably want to do it in the lathe. I'll second the idea of pre-drilling with a smaller drill, so the 1 inch drill doesn't need to bear the entire load.
 
Ditto Dave's reply.

Haas = Light duty machine = Fast Light cuts.

I predrill lots of holes for a spadedrill as it winds up being faster and I don't have to hear the motor whining like a little baby.

But 1"... try to go old tech and peck with a twistdrill.
 
I've been looking to buy a new lathe lately and have found that there is a lot of beefy machines out there with almost no power but more rpm's. Gear boxes are getting harder to find and sometimes only come on the larger machines as an option. I mostly cut 4140 heat treated and annealed and don't really need the high rpm's but rather need the high torque for megga meat removal and to push big drills.
Looked at the Haas and talked to the dealer and couldn't believe that he was able to keep a straight face when he talked about the "high torque" live tooling. 10ft-lbs is not high torgue. In all reality now, can that even turn a 3/8 coarse tap? 1 inch deep in 4140 in a blind hole?
 
I have found twin-insert carbide insert drills require much less thrust (and hp) than indexable spade drills. Spade drills are great, but you gotta have some balls to drill with 'em.
I'd try an insert drill. Higher rpms will get you more hp at the tool.
 
I had a look around the Haas tooling options page. I can only find one axial driven tool that they offer for the SL30, the HLT-AVTH. Details are scarce, it doesn’t even mention a ratio, so I assume that’s direct 1:1
http://www.haascnc.com/option_details.asp?ID=29&MachineID=29&CatID=5#CNCLatheTreeModel

This was the style of thing I was thinking of in WTO. They do 1:1 direct. 2:1 speed decreasing & 1:2 speed increasing. I’ve seen them in higher ratios that come in factory equipped on Index machines.
http://www.wto-usa.com/engl_reihe/wto_e_progr.html

That wont be a cheap option.

Regards Phil.
 
Drilling

I've always used the rule of thumb that it takes 10 HP per inch diameter to run a spade drill, and I have no problems running up to a 2" spade in our HAAS HL1BB or TL25. The TL25 would never have the power to run a 1" spade drill and it's basically a couple SL30 spindels with live tooling.

That's the reason we went with an Integrex for our live tooled stuff. No contest in the material removed department. It will walk all over the Haas, but it's also far more expensive, and much less lacking in after sales support.

I think you just don't havve the HP to run the spade drill. If you really must drill it with your live tooling, I'd either drill a starter hole first, OR mount an annular cutter like a 1" rotobroach. This is very fast, will take you about 8 seconds per hole because you only remove the perifery not the whole slug as swarf. You'll need to make ABSOLUTLEY sure you have enough coolant to ALWAYS eject the slug, of you'll hear a loud bang eventually. You'll hear a small bang every time a slug is ejected at any rate. My favorite annular cutters are Hougan rotobraoch cutters. There are lots of others out there, just don't buy a glorified hole saw.

Stu
 








 
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