compact CNC mills

I need a larger mill that will give me a milling envelope greater than my current milling machine in which the x axis is limited to about 12 inches. It seemed a good idea to add CNC to this since i eventually wanted to get into CNC milling. I have size restraints because of the small size of my shop. I explored the world of CNC bed mills and knee mills with table sizes of 9x49 to 10 x 50 with an x axis typically around 30 or more inches. The best bang for the buck and the most compact mill i could find was American Machine Tools version of the CNC variant of the Accu II mill. It comes in two models one with R8 vs iso 30 spindle with 3hp motor and a second version with iso 40 spindle and 5hp motor. Anybody here have experience or know anything about these machines..the good, the bad and the ugly ?

thanks

Hi,

I looked into small mills myself. I am looking for an old Bridgeport with Boss CNC controls.

The problem with these little mills is that they are "open looped" vs "closed Loop" or is it visa versa.

Anyway what that means in English is that the control doesnt really know where the cutter is in the part because it is just counting the revolutions in the servos from one position compared to getting constant feedback to where cutter is.

thats why I AINT buying one of these little machines.

Zomok

Actually, the accura II is compact not little. It weighs in at 3100 lbs. I am just uncertain of the quality of this machine.

Have you looked at the new FADAL Tool Room Mill? It seems to be a solid machine from a well known and respected American company for less than $20,000.

E-stop,

no, haven't checked this one out but will have a look.

thanks

also, thanks for reminding me E-stop. I could have saved all that verbage by just saying i am looking a "toolroom mill". That seems to be the term for the general do everything compact milling machines that are combo cnc-manual mills for smaller machine shops just stepping into CNC versus the boxed in machining centers used for large volume production work.

for that kind of cash you can get a used full featured machining center in the 20 x 20 x 20 range. The only issue to the little machining centers is most require a 10' cieling for the cable carrier on the z head. I'd do the machining center before the tr mill. Also, depending on intended use, I know a guy who gets into older used stuff, he had an OKK with all fanuc for about $6500 operational once. an off brand, no enclosure, but would operate.

well that's part of the problem "10 feet". My ceiling is 100" and with the ceiling panel removed it goes to 116". Can't make 120" and i have yet to see a machining center that isn't huge except for like dynamechtronics machines that have milling envelopes that are too small for my use. Truth be told the tree journeyman 250 was the perfect manual/cnc mill for me. Max height 78", box ways, heavy duty servo motors, Vickers control etc. but....the company that bought tree is now in chapter 11. end of that story.

Oh, and thanks again to E-stop. I've got an appointment with the local vendor of Fadal machines to go out and take a look at their toolroom CNC mill. Max height is 80" which is ok. but...Fadal, like Hass, has their own proprietary controller. Too bad. I really like the Centroid controller and I am a little disappointed in their sales person who says he was a machinist for 20 years and he says he never heard of centroid. Don't know what to think of that remark. Has he been living in a cave ?

Don't be too put off by his remark. I've been working with CNC's for about 25 years and have only heard about Centroid in the past couple of years.... and I've yet to get my hands on one. They aren't real popular around this area. At least he was being honest. Better than having a sales rep lie to you.

As far as the Fadal control being proprietary, 'taint no big deal. I've not seen the one on the Tool Room Mill but if it's comparable to their others it's easy to learn and use and you'll get used to it real quick. Don't quote me on this but I think the Siemens control might be available. Won't hurt to ask.

[This message has been edited by E-Stop (edited 03-21-2003).]

One thing about the new Haas mill is that it runs on 220 Single Phase !
Don't know about Fadel

yes, you are right about the Haas and i will find out about the single phase possibility on the Fadal today when i have a look at it. I do have a rotary drum converter that i use to run my lathe and my manual mill so i do have three phase but i have a theory that the resale value on single phase machines may be higher just because a lot of potential customers (if i ever had to sale the machine) prefer 220 single phase. Actually, three phase is easy to acquire but before i converted, i was terrified of the idea. now, it just seems natural. Still there a lot of guys out there who stay away from three phase stuff. One important thing though with these machines is to make sure the motor is really true single phase and not a 3 phase with a static inverter to convert single to 3 phase. Static inverters give you a 20% loss in horsepower compared to rotary drum converters but of course they are solid state and cheaper.

That said, I continue to be disappointed by how little sales people seem to know. I consider myself as knowing didleysquat and it's distressing to find that the people who should know the answers to technical questions on CNC machines have to call to find the answers. I asked one sales guy to squeeze behind the machine and read off the horsepower on the plate and he did but he said "you ask questions no one asks". Well, either i am really ignorant which i can readily believe or there must be people buying machines with little thought as to quality or what they are getting.

I am also running into comparison problems. These mills come with an infinite variety of packages and it's like comparing apples and oranges instead of apples to apples. A case in point is the centroid mills versus non-centroid controller mills. Centroid offers a nice CNC edge finding probe package that can be upgraded to 3D digitizing. The non-Centroid mill dealers point to Renishaw probes and say that will work. Just try and figure out on your own what Renishaw probe is the equivalent of the Centroid locating CNC probe and which one can be upgraded to digitizing and finally, how much all this will cost compared to Centroid's version. At this point i am considering just giving up for awhile on the CNC idea unless i can find some local person who knows CNC and is willing to help me keep from making a bad decision.

Sometimes with a little work you can get your CNC to work single phase. I did this with my older Hurco CNC. Now, I realize that this is not a modern machine, but the priciple is pretty much the same. As it turned out, the only 3 phase thing on the machine is the spindle motor, and that is driven by a VFD (actually, the original VFD was run by single phase too). I bought a new 3 phase VFD and derated it by 50%, did some rewiring of the transformers and bingo! Now I'm running on 220V single phase. Keep in mind, that this is *not* a huge VMC with a 10HP motor! It is a Bridgeport sized mill. Still, it is something to think about.

Alan

Hi folks,
I jammed an old excello cnc into my garage. My door seal was lower than 8 feet but by temporarily removing the power drawbar motor I wheeled it in on a pallet jack. Watch power requirements, I almost bought a used machine with a fanuc control until I found it will fault if all three phases are not present. I wasnt to keen on haveing a 40hp 3ph generator running just to keep the control powered up!
BTW, the control on the excello died so the machine is forsale. It has hard chromed ways and has very little wear. Great for reto fitting I just dont have time and need the room.
-Tom

What we do to get things into our garage! For my part, I only have a 6.5 foot door and the machine is about 8 feet tall. I considered taking the ram off (Hurco KMB-1 is effectively a BPort clone), but I was concerned about it being top heavy and hard to control. I ended up pulling the motor and spindle box so I could get inside. What a pain. Of course, now the machine has to sit between two rafters because my clearance inside the garage is only 7 feet. Oh well!

How much are you asking for the Excello, and do you have any pictures?

Hi Wrench, Ill have to borrow my daughters digital camera. Id like to get $1250 for it
since its in such good physical condition. Im
in Austin Tx. I considered trying to get a convental head for it and converting to manual.
email me at [email protected] and Ill describe it in more detail.

In response to Doug. very definite yes. Fadal rolled out the red carpet for me. Went by their industrial palace yesterday and they had one of their field engineers waiting for me to show me how their controller works. They don't have a toolroom mill in stock (too new) but they have a bunch of turning centers. Anyway the field engineer spent an hour showing me all the functions available on the Fadal through the controller. They asked me to come back anytime and play with the controller on my own and take a tour of the industrial complex. Nicest reception of any machinery dealer i ever had. They were not even put off by my not being a production machinist or that i was stretching just to purchase their smallest CNC milling machine. They even called a local rigger for me and made sure that the toolroom mill could pass through a 84 inch high door way. Service wise they are a winner. There complex is in Wilsonville, Oregon. I know they are a big presence in California and pretty much compete head on with Haas whose industrial palace (and i do mean "palace") is a block down the street in Wilsonville.

The Haas will also work for me but it has a cable looping over the top which means it is quite a bit higher than the Fadal and I would have to cut a square out of the wallboard in the ceiling of my garage shop and position it between the rafters to get the full z travel whereas with Fadal i can get full z travel without opening the ceiling.

Also, the Fadal has peak 7.5 hp with a 5hp motor whereas i believe someone here in the forum thought Haas has a 3 hp motor. Will have to confirm that.

Got a chance to see some parts made by their cnc machines. All i can say is wow! Maybe i'll switch from motorcycles to building space shuttles if i get one of these.

Actually if the truth be known. I love my Deckel manual mill and would give my left nut to own an FP3 CNC deckel. Called the guy in Chicago who sells refurbished deckels that are brought over from Germany and the prices he quoted me are in the Bill Gates range if you know what i mean. Looks like the Taiwanese mill win out if i am going to get CNC.

You do know that Haas and Fadal mills are Taiwanese don't you ? I am pretty sure these are not made in Europe and i know they are not made in the US. As far as I can tell, nothing with gears in it is made in the US anymore.

So Doug, what toolroom cnc mills have you seen that strike your fancy as being first class ? I am always interested in any advice on this subject of CNC toolroom mills. Still would love to have a CNC deckel. that would be machine heaven.