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Haas questions

Seekins

Stainless
Joined
Jan 10, 2005
Location
Lewiston ID
With all the problems rising with the SS vertical mills would a guy be ahead buying a standard and putting the side tool changer on it? Or should one just opp for the normal tool changer and live with its snail speed? 7000$ price difference. My parts do require quite a bit of tool changing and the multiple tool changes exceed the cut time on a normal changer. I want at least 10k rpm's and i dont need rapids over 1000ipm as my parts are fairly small.
Im so used to the Haas controler and i have a couple already. I just cant force myself to get something difrent.
 
How many parts can you make on the table at once? To me, this would be the first option to exhaust on a job with a lot of toolchanging. It is also a good reason to get a larger machine than it may appear is called for by the size of the parts themselves. I like the 40" X of my VF3, and cannot see ever getting a smaller machine than that. I can get 4 vises, or a 4th axis and a couple of vises on there.
 
Hate to say it but I would be sacred to death of one of the SS right now. I have had such great luck with all of mine...but too many people are reporting problems.
That said I would spend the $7000 for the side mt, as it will pay for itself...and you get a few more tools.
Also if you have enough parts and can see ahead that far I would definitely look at a bigger machine. My latest is a VF4 and I love cramming the vices and 4th in there. It totally changed the way I approach programing...I find new ways to eliminate the tool change as much as possible.
Gary
 
Thanks guys,

My parts are about 1x1.5" and .8-1" deep. I can put one full run of parts on the mini mill so i figured a vf2 or 3 would give me that + some. I have the mini mill for second-4th opps set up without changing anything. I want more power and RPM so i can take a decent cut. With the mini mill and a 1/2" end mill @ 70ipm .17doc puts it at 90% load. I have actually been quite impressed with the amount of parts i can get out of the mini, but with the business growing and new products coming on line I need to grow.

At the moment the longest opp is 5 cut minuets + 4 tool changes. With more power and RPM i can do this same part in 1.5 min + whatever the tool changes are. More parts on the bed, 1/4 of the time and leaving the mini set up for other opps = about 10x the productivity i need, witch should work for now. I will get another mill when/if needed. Most likely another mini to keep up with the lager machines feeding habits.
 
Hu, you have a very good point. I can step up to a larger machine with a normal tool changer and save even more time. 4 tool changes over 50 parts is one thing, but over 200 is another.

for the savings of a tool changer i could step up into the next size mill and possibly leave some other setups in it.
 
Seekins

My VF4 currently has: 2 Kurt 6", 1 Kurt 6" double vises, 2 manual 5C blocks, 1 air-operated 5C block, HA5C indexer and a 12x12 subplate to mount fixtures or a 10" chuck.
The vises and collet blocks are arranged so clamping in an 18" x 30" AL toolplate is a matter of 5 minutes.
Gotta love larger tables.
 
Unless you're going from one end of the table to the other, the faster rapids won't really pay off for you other than the Z rapiding up for a tool change. Going with the standard verticles, keeps you into the slower running ball screws, so accuracy should still stay good. That side mount tool changer in my opinion is worth it. You can probably put that into a package with some other options that will make that tool changer even less expensive, instead of ordering it "ala carte".
 
Another vote for a standard VF3 or 4 with the side mount changer. Another thing to think about is adding a manual pallet changer like a Midaco. I have one on my VF3 and it is a major bonus. :D

If you need extra Y travel then consider the VF3YT or VM3.
 
For the size parts you are talking about, you might consider a 24,000 rpm Robodrill.
Lightning fast.
 
with our vf6/50 i have the side changer and it has two dissadvantages, 1 is if your machining a tall part you have to make sure to send the table out of the way. 2 it doesnt work to well with heavy tools. this one drops my 8" face mill too many times to count so now i have to manualy load. using 50 taper tools with an 8" facer i had to wright a tool load program just so i could hold to tool in the spindle

O0223 (tool load)
g4 p5000 (5 sec dwell after cycle start)
m82 (spin unclamp)
g4 p5000 (dwell while heaving tool in spindle)
m86 (spin clamp
m30 (take a breather)

the tool ways about 40 lbs and im short on top of that. if i had to do it over i whould opt for the carousel and payed alittle more for a vf7/50.
 
g-coder, could you not just call tool 100 or something? Then manually load it when it called for that tool?

Doug.
 
My new VF-5 with side mount tool changer has a setting for heavy tools but 40lbs may be too heavy. Man that GO4 P5000 sounds very dangerous. I have an older Haas with the carousel and chip to chip is around 10 seconds...the side mount is 5 seconds or less. Side mount tool changer, big table and 10k spindle is the only way to go!!
Carl
 
Doug, the tool is too heavy for me to hold and press the unclamp button at the same time. and yeah, the program scares me a little but it works.
 
Seekins:

Are you saying that you make 4 tool changes each part, or just 4 tool changes for one load of N number of parts.

If your are doing 4 tool changes for each part, then you need to change your approach.

If one operation on 1 part with 1 tool is 5 minutes, then 20 parts with 1 tool would be 100 minutes, and a tool change would be insignificant.

.
 
Seekins,

The Haas geneva wheel tool changers have a internal web plate that is aluminum, about .500 inch thick. It is not protected from galvanic or dis-similar metal corrosion. After 5 years it will corrode enough to crack. The whole thing has to come out to be rebuilt. The Haas tech can change it out in an afternoon, but the tool changer will never be the same. The side mount changers have problems over 5 years with the receiver cups. (have not changed em yet) The side changers are much better if you use a probe.(keeps it out of the work envelope)

g-coder05,

Have you considered mounting the tool on the table, then programing a tool change like a router? Haas m-codes will allow you to program the tool clamp, un-clamp. One shop set extra tools on the table, part required 36 tools.
 
I think i will just go with the standard mill with a few options i want. Hu had a good point and so does Gar. maybe for my next one i will try a SS after after they figure out the bugs. I would really like a high end machine, but i just dont want to have a different controller in the house. too bad i couldn't get a Mori with a Haas controller


I spoke to a friend today that is also dropping tools out of his SS tool changer. they are smaller tools, 40 taper.
 
We have 4 Haas (2 VF1 2 VF4)
all with the umbrella (normal) tool changer instead of the side mount

We have one new problem that we never faced before

during machining a lot of burr goes into the magazine and sticks on to the tool taper through the small slit around the tool changer
( this happens on on particular 'high' job)
We had some runout attributed to this

The side mount wont have these problems

MJM
 
My mini mill has the same problem when i use the shear hog. There isnt much distance between the work and changer and after a while the shearhog fills the tool changer with large chips.
 
Seekins, is the 12,000rpm spindle available on the standard machines? If I were in your situation, I would buy as much RPM as possible.

With the parts you're making, the difference between 12,000rpm and 10,000rpm will correlate directly to whether you get to go home at 4pm or 6pm.
 
NeedCNC2

This table mounted tools idea is something Ive never heard about .

WOW !! what a brillant idea....

Is it an OEM Idea ? or is it thought up by somebody when he was forced to ,like in the case mentioned(36 tools) ?

WOW again !!

MJM
 








 
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