Hurco VM1 verses Haas VF1

I have been researching these two machines trying to decide which one to purchase. I'm still on the fence so I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has used either. Thanks!

Price is within $4k so no clear winner there. Options are cheaper on the Hurco. For example 128mb of RAM for $495 for the Hurco verses 16mb of RAM for $995 for the Haas.

Hurco has a vertical tool changer. That's a $7k option on the Haas. Hurco comes with a 1gb hard drive. Thats part of a $3k option on the Haas.

Haas out specs the Hurco in rapids, feeds, table capacity, spindle HP. Only thing is, some salesmen are telling me Haas overstates the machines true capabilities. They say, try loading 3,000 pounds on the table and actually moving it at those rapid speeds, it will fault out. They say the Hurco is more accurate cutting a 14 inch circle at 300ipm than the Haas is cutting the same circle at 80ipm.

Here are some specs on the two at a glance...

You may want to read my post concerning Haas service.....
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/13/3696.html
Jim

I just went through the same thing. I don't think there is a clear winner here. I eneded up getting a Haas VF-2 because after I optioned the Hurco VM-1 I was within a couple thou of the VF-2 in price. Anoher reason was that Haas is like a Chevy 350. Everyone seems to have one, and getting help with DIY repairs is easy, getting posts for whatever software you run is easy.

That SMTC is sexy no doubt but one second difference? Who cares.

Don't let that salesman stuff get you, they ALL inflate their ratings.

I really don't think you will go wrong with either machine and my WAG is that they are pretty equivalent as far as capabilities.

I agree with you, the price difference is negligible.
Agree with Jim, make sure you're not in his service area.
Lastly agree with Nervis, the SMTC is sexy, but if you're doing short runs, quick setups, the sidemount may kick you in the butt. More so because of only 16 tools in the carousel. At least the HAAS optional sidemount has 40 tools for the extra money.
Not sure what those people're talking about with the circle accuracy test, but you get a baalbar report with the machine. Mine looked pretty darn good. My finishes also look pretty darn good even on the Mini, let alone the VF4. Accuracy has NEVER been a problem in any material, and I do cut quite a bit more Inco than I care to. With all that said, at 8000 and 7500 RPM you prolly won't be cutting anything at 300IPM anyway.
Seen the Hurco's controller. Impressive looking little thing, also quite powerful with the optional gadgets. If you do your programs on CAM though < my opinion on the subject is widely publicized on this board > the HAAS control is more user friendly and easier to accomplish the setup tasks with, 99% of functions only a single button that's logically laid out. The G-code side of HAAS is darn close to Fanuc, seem to have everything the way it should. Hurco does a few things funny, such as incremental Q in G83. WTF? But I digress....
Since you've asked for opinions, which are exactly like a$$holes, mine say you'd do fine with either one. My vote though goes for a HAAS based on experience, and it would also go to HAAS if I was to start from scratch.

My 2 cents...


That difference in spindle TQ is quite a bit...54 Ver 74..

And I believe the new Haas' are shipping with a USB port so a cheap 1 GIG key can be used..both to transfer programs and to DNC.

OK so it was only 1.25 cents..

There is not a VF1 in the world with a legit 20 horsepower spindle. Don't expect to get any more than a 7.5 hp cut out of that "20HP" spindle.

Hurco also seems to rate their spindles as "Peak HP." Translation: "Maximum amperage draw as the spindle catches on fire 3 minutes after it stalled out."

That said, I'd choose the Haas just because of brand recognition, parts availability, and the fact that they're cast, machined, and assembled in the United States.

"Maximum amperage draw as the spindle catches on fire 3 minutes after it stalled out."

Click to expand...

LOL

A few month ago I was in a similar position. . . right down to the spreadsheet comparision. . .

Haas was little more than the Huroc but at the end I went with Haas because it's made in the US and has a larger user base.

another machine to compare is the milltronics vmc's. I was looking at a rw-20 and it is a sweet machine, boxway 8000 rpm, 1000ipm 25x20x20.5 16 tools. The sharp vmc also looks good and has a fanuc control.

I just bought a Sharp VMC with the 10k spindle and I got mine with an OMb control as opposed to the Om mate so I can run a fourth axis
Box ways, 24x12x18 and 16 tools
comes with a proper chip conveyer instead of an auger too
Jim

You may want to read my post concerning Haas service.....

Click to expand...

I'll have to call my brother on that, he has purchased a number of Haas machines via Selway out of the Portland, OR area. I'm 3,000 miles east of there.

That SMTC is sexy no doubt but one second difference? Who cares.

Click to expand...

I have heard the SMTC protects the tools from chips and muck flying around. Also that carousels tend to get in the way.

I know my brother is high on his VF2SS SMTC. But maybe thats because his old VF1 carousel went BOOM and fell off the machine while he was sitting on the toilet one day.

All that said, so long as the tool changer works and did not intrude into my workcube either is fine by me. I certainly would not pay another $7k for a SMTC.

Not the sound one wants to hear when on the can!

Not sure what those people're talking about with the circle accuracy test, but you get a baalbar report with the machine.

Click to expand...

Seymour my comfort level on buying a Haas machine isn't very high. There are so many "I'll never buy another Haas", "Haas service stinks", "Haas sold me a lemon" stories on the internet this has me spooked.

On the other hand many people like my brother are happy with their Haas machines. I'm wondering if the pressure of trying to ship so many machines results in a few lemons escaping the factory. If so I don't want to be among the unfortunate few who end up with one especially since the warranty is only 6 months.

Hurco on the other hand seems to enjoy a loyal following among owners. Its difficult to find anyone saying anything negative about their machines. That said Hurco is high on their conversational features which I have no use for and so I don't want to be paying extra for those features. I prefer to sit in my comfy office chair and use OneCNC for my CAD/CAM.

And I believe the new Haas' are shipping with a USB port so a cheap 1 GIG key can be used..both to transfer programs and to DNC.

Click to expand...

Now that is some good news! I use thumb drives now, definately the way to go verses dealing with networking and RS232 cables. $3,000 for that Haas networking option is absurd.

On the other hand Hurco has an equally high priced Max Classic package for $3,000 (HD, floppy, 64mb ram, touch screen graphics) but I heard yesterday they are throwing in the Advanced Velocity Control package (normally $3,900) for free if you order the above mentioned $3,000 package. I can actually use the AVC.

There is not a VF1 in the world with a legit 20 horsepower spindle. Don't expect to get any more than a 7.5 hp cut out of that "20HP" spindle.

Hurco also seems to rate their spindles as "Peak HP." Translation: "Maximum amperage draw as the spindle catches on fire 3 minutes after it stalled out."

Click to expand...

Oh the HP thing is annoying. I get seriously irritated when I'm being BS'ed and that is probably the most troublesome thing about researching the new machine. Haas says their table can handle 3,000 pounds and rapid at 1,000 ipm. So I point this out to other manufactures and they say well try putting a 3,000 pound load on the Haas table and rapiding that fast, the machine will fault out. I think HP, speeds, feeds, loads, etc. should be spec'ed in terms of what it can do over an 8 hour shift not a 1 minute to destruction scenerio.

I'm beginning to think I'm going to have to speak with an actual engineer at each company to get a straight answer.

I'd expect to see some damage just by PLACING 3000lbs on the VF1 table, let alone rapid traversing around at 1000ipm.

Funny thing is, you couldn't physically FIT 3000lbs of iron or steel on the table of a VF-1. A block of iron the same size as the table, 26x14, would have to be 30 inches thick in order to weigh 3000lbs. That 30 inches would be a tough dimension to reach, considering the spindle face can only reach 24 inches off of the table.

3000lbs. HA!

I went with the VM1.

I would like to tell you how great it is but I don't have it yet.

I visited a local shop that has one, to take some measurements. while I was there I talked with the operator and he liked it alot. the only problem he had with it was the coolant needed to be adjusted too often. I told him that, I ordered mine with the spider cool programable nozzel. He then replied, that would be great. other than that he realy enjoyed running the machine. Then the owner showed up and I talked with him about it. He said when he runs jobs that he runs on his other machines, that the cutters last a lot longer. I think that's because you tell it the sfm and chip load and it figures the speed and feed.

Mine is being delivered tomorrow morning sat 09 2006. I hope we can get in the door and under the I-beams. I have had the manual for about ten days, the programing seems to be straight forward.

As far as 750 lb load I have no intention of putting anything even close to 200 lbs on the table.

good luck with your decision.

Wiz

On the other hand many people like my brother are happy with their Haas machines. I'm wondering if the pressure of trying to ship so many machines results in a few lemons escaping the factory. If so I don't want to be among the unfortunate few who end up with one especially since the warranty is only 6 months.

Click to expand...

I think you're onto something there. Again, I'd like to mention that I have 4 machines, 2 lathe and 2 VMC, ranging from 6 years to 6 weeks old, and 0 service calls or repair parts <other than way-wiper felts on the SL10>.
I also know of one guy wo received 2 lemons. Not sure how much is HAAS-s assembly fault, but the hydraulic system as a whole was junk, and some other buggering little issues.
All of mine worked flawlessly outta the box, and so has 8 others in my customer's shops. They were all VMC-s.

I've had a Haas VFOE for 7 years now and it's been a pretty good machine. We're lucky to have a good dealer in this area though and they've been very helpful over the phone even after this much time. That being said i just bought a Hurco vmx42 with thru spindle. One problem i've had with my Haas since it was new is a slow leak in the nitrogen counterbalance, they can only top it off twice then the whole system has to be changed out. The Hurco drives the head without a counterbalance.
Haas needs the gearbox option to develop any low end torque while the Hurco gets real close to it with direct drive. The gearboxes are known to fail over time and they have to be R&R'd.
Some Haas options are a "factory only" item such as the thru spindle. I didn't buy it on mine but really wanted it later, Hurco will add just about anything after the fact as your needs change. They also offer a TS prep package from the factory for half the price of the full option and the rotary union is mounted at the factory if money is really tight.
Hurco is coming out with their new Winmax control sometime around the beginning of the year and it looks to be very powerfull. If you buy a machine now and whine about it they will upgrade the current control when the new one comes out for free. The current coversational programming doesn't allow comments to be inserted which seems crazy and has been my recent pet peeve.
Adding 4th axis to the hurco can be pricey compared to the Haas but the conversational control makes milling moves real easy.
The hardest thing so far is not judging the Hurco control versus the Haas until i get used to it which says something in itself. You should get a good demo of the Hurco control, it's a pretty powerfull piece that the Haas can't touch on the shop floor.
I won't even get going on the horsepower/ current requirement BS these people publish.