HAASPOWER??????

i_r_machinist · Aug 1, 2007

I've read several posts that reference this term. Usually refering to a 20 horse machine not being able to do something or another. I'm looking at a VF-3. Is there something I should know??

i_r_machinist :confused:

gar · Aug 1, 2007

Get the HAAS literature than defines horsepower and torque vs speed at different duty cycles. Do this for other manufactures as well. The information is not easy to find.

Also note that motor horsepower is not that at the spindle because at high speeds a lot of power goes into heating the spindle. Also peak power may not be at maximum speed. Do not confuse torque and horsepower.

Power = Torque * RPM / 5252 where the units are horsepower, and #-ft.

.

SND · Aug 1, 2007

I wish all manufacturers were forced to use the exact same standard when rating power. Unfortunately some of them won't say the duty cycle "yay, 20HP, for 5 seconds then it catches fire"

Everything should be 100% duty and 30minutes rated, Some do it, others don't. Then you get the odd 10, 15 or 20 minutes rated. It's annoying to me. Then depending on the electronics I think your power over a range of speeds will vary between some brands.

Haas seems rate at peak amperage draw, or thats the impression many of us get. Which pretty much means... its stalled.

Gary E · Aug 1, 2007

Review YOUR tools and the power reqired to drive them in the material you use.

For example...
From Machinery's Handbook
2 inch Pipe Tap in Cast Iron at 40 RPM requires 4.24 HP
2 1/2 inch Pipe Tap in Cast Steel at 38 RPM requires 9.14 HP

Now you may never use taps that big,
but how about a little 1 in NPT or a 1-8 NC ??

Before I would buy any machine,
I'd surely want to know what it will do, and what it wont.

Madlab · Aug 1, 2007

I'm looking at a VF-3. Is there something I should know??

Well.... start by knowing what you are going to do with the machine. By this I mean, What material are you going to cut? Inconel or delrin,
fast or slow, programed how they did it 30 years ago or by a new Cam system that uses high speed techniques. Those that talk about Haaspower usually
1) Have a 50taper Makino and cut Hard material all the time with a machine that cost 4x a VF3.
2) Like to use 1" end mills using .750 D.O.C. at 20+ ipm.
3) Or are the kind of enthusiast that when you say you are looking at a new Honda Civic, quickly state "those Honda's are crap... heck a Hennessey Viper 1000 does 0-200 in 20.3 seconds!!
So for 60K How can you beat a VF3? And what in that range is going to cut better, faster and last longer? Talk to your sales guy and address your concerns if you are cutting stuff you are worried that the Haas won't cut. Ask for some proof that it will or won't. Test cut and find out All the specifics of how it is run. Good luck and don't always listen to what us droolling morons tell you on this board (except Smallshop....he really is smart) -matt

sudtechcnc · Aug 4, 2007

Hey !!

The Haas sure Cuts.

We had been baby sitting the Haas vf1,s and vf4 for some time now .
Not making them sweat ....

Then we got the message that we need to cut down on cycle times.. So we thought we've been hearing a lot of the Haas power but havent tested it.

So we said lets make the machine shudder ....
They halved the cycle time with some really heavy cuts ...

Sorry I'm a maintenance man .so cant give you the details of speed and feeds and depth of cuts etc.

But Ive been around a lot of cncs in the past 10 years . And I'm really impressed with the Haas power.

We made it shudder .. But It didnt sweat.

But I'm not too keep about the paint job , It peels off...

The tool carousel plate is too thin . gets bent with the slightest hit( due to wrong operation)
Dont like the big I/O pcb with scores of components ( we'll have to change the whole PCB even if a small component fails)

Dont like the spindle belt tensioning design.

Actually dont like a lot of things on the haas
but It Cuts beautifully.

MJM

izzoe46 · Aug 4, 2007

I'm looking at a VF-3. Is there something I should know??

The only problem I've had with haas tools sticking. Vf3 will cut whatever you throw at it

. I've cut d2,h13,64al,ss304, some hard suff with no problems.

I've ran vf1-vf3's. When maching for more than 4 hrs. straight at high speeds the tools tend to stick. Then the atc will alarm if it can't pull the tool out. That is very common for haas.

sudtechcnc · Aug 4, 2007

Yeah we get that too izzoe.

And I thought it was just the not-completely -dry compressed air we were supplying to the machine.

Highly productive machine
lightning fast tool changes , but flimsy atc mechanism. got to take real care of it. ( the sheet metal flap on the carousel and the front back movement motor need constant tightening, ).

Its fast because its light and its flimsy because its light......

Sorry I_r_machinist . I'm not a great Haas FAn.

MJM

SeymourDumore · Aug 4, 2007

Izzoe

Regarding the sticking problem, I always wipe my spindle with WD40 ( what else! ) before and after each shifts. Neither of my Haas-s have sticking issues, even though the P-cool nozzle likes to put a nice splash into and onto the spindle at each toolchange. There is a slightly louder bang when the tool is used heavily for 1+ hour straight, but still never had any faliures.
Also, if the Cat40 taper is showing some signs of wear or rust-looking rough spots, into the scrapbin they go.
I do however admit that there are quite a few people having sticking problems on HAAS-s. Wonder if it is only on the umbrella changers ( mine are ) or the sidemounts as well?

SeymourDumore · Aug 4, 2007

Sorry, forgot about the topic.
For whatever it's worth, Mori also lists Peak, 30 min and continuous HP ratings, so that's not unique to Haas-s, albeit they may have been the initiators.
Also, the Mori caliber machines may have a better, more rugged motor/drive combo for a given HP rating.
With that said though I have not had any spindle related problems whatsoever, neither did my customers. They run tons of Inco, and the parts, programs, speeds/feeds are identical to the ones running on their Matsuuras. ( not to say that the Haas is equal to the Matsuura )
If you can afford it though, get the gearbox!!!
If you can't, get it anyway.

izzoe46 · Aug 4, 2007

Yeah its a pain sometimes. The molds we machine are really detailed so some have 4 different tools and each will take aound 4 hrs.
We would like to machine overnight but that would be a problem.
We have to schedule the part so that only one tool will cut over night. If there is a tool change then it will alarm.

That is the only problem I have with haas. I like all the features and the eazyness of the control.

Seymour we use WD too. We try and keep all the tapers nice and clean. And they are umbrella type

I always thought it was because we are always running around max speed. 7-10,000 rpm.

SeymourDumore · Aug 4, 2007

Izzoe

You might be right about the high RPM. I seldom machine anything with 3000 or more, so that is not something I've experienced.

gar · Aug 4, 2007

070804-1448 EST USA

If sticking can be shown to be a time factor, then add into the program a forced tool change every X minutes.

This might mean change from tool 2 to tool 1 and back to tool 2, etc. Of course you never do anything with tool 1 in this case.

.

adama · Aug 4, 2007

gary e read what u have just written then look at the post above yours by gar. i can and have turned a 2 inch pipe tap in steel, i am not even one horsepower!

trying to stall out the spindle is stupid, depending on direct or gear drive torque could be miles higher on a machine with a fraction of the horse power. that would let it tap big holes. it wouldnt increase matirial removal rates. that why all the old manual lathes had lots of gears, use full hp at the best possible rpm - tourque trade off for the job.

even then it all depends on what you want to make. a bridgport fills my needs, a 250+ 50 taper 5 axis mazak would also do my needs but its over kill! match the machine to the job, idealy allow a little more potential for things in the future too. remember the machine earns u money so you can improve - get more machines - cars - yatchs etc. dont buy a machine to just pay for buying the machine if that makes sense.

run some of your jobs on the machines in question, let the reps set the feeds - cuts as they think is best for there machine and see what you get, just dont let them use the ubber expensive unobtanium coated wonder cutters! its like cars and bhp its a rubbish number! to many other verables effect what u actualy get 0 - 60 in secounds is something relevent that can't be cheeted on! go about buying tools in the same way, performance not spec's!

metlhed · Aug 5, 2007

Not a big Haas guy, but I'll tell you that even the Mini-Mill will cut M-7 tool steel all day, heavy cuts and all. Never had a tool sticking problem either, umbrella type. Only problem with the harder stuff is once in a while, a small chip will make it into the taper, and oversize a finish bore op by a thou or two. Great hint about the WD-40 wipe down. The only thing you sacrifice with 20hp is that you're not gonna get the 20,000 rpm. Not gonna need those rpms in the harder stuff. If you are looking for high rpms, then you are gonna sacrfice hp. IMO, 20hp is more than enough for most aps.

ckeith1 · Aug 5, 2007

I called Haas on this a while back, their 20hp ratings were as follows...

20hp rating = 1 minute @ 200%
15hp rating = 30 minutes @ 150%
10hp rating = run all day @ 100%

smallshop · Aug 5, 2007

"(except Smallshop....he really is smart) -matt "

You mean the smallshop that built a cantilevered bed for his bedroom out of steel-box tubing, anchored it to the slab, and THEN put down the bamboo floor over the pedestal? And is now selling the house WITH the bed cause he can't afford to redo the floor.....That smallshop....?(drooling with the rest of 'em.......)

IR,

what kind of work do you intend to do with your machine? Give us best and worst case scenario. And remember, There's guys all over the planet making a living with VF-3s. (Though I'm doing it with a Fadal 3016 cause I already knew the control )

timf · Aug 5, 2007

i have 2 vf3ss that i have had no problems with for 2 years.
usually running small parts and doin fast contours, this week i had a plastic job that required me to use a 4.00 x .625 saw on an arbor for an internal pocket/slot.
long story short i tried 100 sfm .0005 chip load per and actually stalled the spindle these machines seem to have no low end torque.
we moved it to my mori sieki and had no problems with the cut.
still love the haas for 3-d contouring at high speeds the hsm option leaves great blends and finishes.

i_r_machinist · Aug 5, 2007

Smallshop,
I'm getting out of the renthouse business and going to build a shop. I want to build RC stuff with my son. I want to cut plastic,aluminum and stainless parts that fit into a 30 x 20 in. envelope, and have an ATC.I've set a cash limit on the one machine and Haas VF3 squeeked in. I've only been around 2 Haas mills. Both in toolroom applications. But both shops speak highly of them, and our machine maintenence contractor said that is what he would buy. The Haaspower subject came up because a couple of my buddies called to see if I would be interested in picking up a little work, which is what I don't want this to turn into. I've seen people turn into slaves of the machine. But there again a couple hours a month to make a machine payment wouldn't hurt.

What ckieth1 posted was what I really needed to know. That and the gearbox issue Seymoore advized.

Thanks
i_r_machinist
ps. After I finish my morning coffee I'm walking out of the house and staking out the location of my shop!! YEAH!

wrustle · Aug 5, 2007

Have the umbrella type toolchanger as well on my Haas...thought I had a problem with tools sticking, but I guess I'm sorta glad to hear it is a common thing. No issues with horsepower here, we cut mainly aluminum and brass.

HAASPOWER??????

Titanium

Stainless

Diamond

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Cast Iron

Cast Iron

Cast Iron

Diamond

Diamond

Cast Iron

Diamond

Stainless

Diamond

Stainless

Aluminum

Diamond

Plastic

Titanium

Titanium

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