Customer support

Thinking aboot buying a Haas or Cincinatti used CNC.

I currently have a Hardinge and have had EXCELLENT customer support! They will try to talk me through anything, and doo not push to get a service guy here at all. This allows me to get my machine back up and running quicker and cheaper, and I would rather work on my own stuff anyhow. They make up for it in the price of the repair parts I am sure, but with the tech support, I don't feel bad at all.

I also have an old (83) Cinn, but can't say I have had much trouble with it. What trouble I have had (bad batteries) Cinn couldn't help me. After 9 yrs, I can't say as to wheather Cinn has good support or not. Maybe THAT is the best statement of all eh?

What can anyone tell me aboot Haas or Cinn that has had much experience? Doo you think it matters whether or not you bought it new or used? Doo they return phone calls in respectable time?

BTW, I have found a source finally for the 2 volt Cinn bats. Unfortunately I had just purchased a fairly large UPS to hook the memmory circuit too. (oh well, my cordless phones work well when the lights go out now, LOL!)

I have no experience with Haas, but have with Fadal and their support was excellent, would talk me thru any problems at no charge. My only experience with Cincinnati is in attempting to buy parts for their older manual machines, such as cylindrical grinders and mills. I say "attempting" because, although they ususally could supply the parts, they were insanely expensive....like US Military "hammer and toilet seat" expensive ! So I ended up just making whatever part I need myself. But this was back in the late 80's....maybe they have improved by now, dunno.

I have no experience with Haas, either, but I asked a couple of other guys that run them all the time. One guy says he's never had to call for service. The other guy says he has a few times and the support was good. Answered all his questions and talked him thru some troubleshooting and repairs.

I've dealt with FADAL and Mazak. Both offer excellent support although Mazak is quite expensive on their parts.

[This message has been edited by E-Stop (edited 09-06-2002).]

I have nothing but high praise for my Local Cincinnati dealer. They have always returned my calls promptly and efficiently, getting me to the right person if it was not them. Cincinnati's use to have a 24/7 number for all products, but here in the last couple years, factory Vertical support is Cincinnati time working hours only. It is still very good when open, but if you plan on calling during second shift in CA, forget it. I have had 3 1995 and newer Arrow and Saber VMC's. I still have 2 of them. I run the devil out of them with very few issues. In 20,000 hours, I had a linear scale fail on one of them, and virtually nothing else. I really like the 2100 control. I also have a 1976 Cinturn 12U cnc lathe, which suprisingly all but one part I have ever called about has been in stock. I'd say you don't have much to worry about, go with the machne that looks best to you.
Leo

A customer of mine told me that many years ago he was trying to get some parts for some older Cincinnati machine and they told him that it would take a few weeks to get the price. A few days later he got a set of prints with a request to quote on the part he was looking for! THey were subing out the replacement parts and he was on they supplier list. So since he then had the prints he made it himself!

Originally posted by Ox:
Thinking aboot buying a Haas or Cincinatti used CNC.

BTW, I have found a source finally for the 2 volt Cinn bats. Unfortunately I had just purchased a fairly large UPS to hook the memmory circuit too. (oh well, my cordless phones work well when the lights go out now, LOL!)

Click to expand...

Ox: I put several sets of the batteries in my 900 control - they only last a year or so. You made the smart move to a UPS without knowing it. Took me several years to figure that out...

If you buy a later model cincinnati you can use your local dealer for service - check out their reputation locally. If you buy another old one (900 control) you will have to depend on Cincinnati factory service or an independent guy that knows the old machine. The WORST service experience I've ever had with anything was with Cincinnati factory service!! I'll never call then again for anything. 2 weeks of fumbling around swapping boards @ $100+ per hr, plus hotel, travel expenses, red label shipping every day on big$ boards I didn't need to buy, and it still wasn't fixed, so I sent him home and fixed it myself with a little phone support from Gettys. An expensive nightmare!

On the other hand, the control people (now Siemens) are wonderful. Very helpful on the phone, eager to get you what you need, and they always have had what I needed as far as parts for my 20 year old control. The prices of upgrades are ludicrous though - $5000 to get a new exec tape to turn on the rest of the memory already built into the machine... I think I'm gonna retrofit it with something new.

Cincinnati has been through so many division moves and buyouts, it's amazing that there is anyone left to call. Most of the guys who knew about the older machines are gone and support for the "Value" line made in the UK is sad. I actually like the machines with 900 controls because you get complete documentation and they're pretty easy to work on. Haas is ok for general precision if you warm up the machine. The jury is still out on their durability. If you like Hardinge, why don't you get another one? They make all sizes of lathes and mills and used ones aren't too hard to find. We do a lot of service work on both Cincinnati and Hardinge and can give you more specific info on various models.

I am trying to get to 3" on my next machine if possible. Hardinge only goes to 2 1/2". I still might get a Hardinge and put a "Full Bore" chuck on it. But those are serious money! ??? Also hard to find subspindles on most of the others too. Give and take - and how much do you want to $pend sorta deal yunno?

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

ox

Read your post and saw the picture in your shop. Looks like your Hardinge is a conquest 51 or 65 from the end. I have a production shop also equipped with Hardinge cnc and manual turning. Conquest 51, cobra 42, chnc1, 2 ahc's, 3 dsma's, 1 hc, 1 dv59. In 22 years of shop management in my own shop and my previous employers shop as cnc supervisor and manufacturing manager I dealt with a lot of service companies. In my opinion, and its just an opinion mind you, you will not find machine tool builder service like Hardinge anywhere. Also a word of caution about what to expect from the equipment. I also have a brand new turning center made in Brazil which I will not name because it was a bad decision for us. We needed a 8" chucker to take up the slack in our turning schedule. It was a lighter weight machine with the same capacity only 8000lbs vs 16000 for the conquest but it seemed to be able to cut well in the demonstrations we looked at. My conquest 51 is 9 years old and it shows on the outside. I ran it against the new lathe from Brazil head to head on a production aluminum die cast job. 18,000 pieces total, same size chuck, comparable size turrets, same speeds & feeds, same tooling, same inserts, cycle times separated only by turret index time difference. The Hardinge could run 3000 parts per insert versus 800-1000 for the other lathe. The sales hype about harcrete bases and heavier machine weights appeared true to us. Also ran head to head machining 2500 pcs of 4150ht pulleys. The new lathe from brazil struggled with +-.0005 finishing accuracy through the day because it was affected by coolant temperature change and tool wear. The old Hardinge was purring along uninterupted and held +-.0002 through the run using the same finishing insert throughout and running 1400 of the 2500 pieces of the side by side run since it didn't have to stop for as many finish tooling changes or wear offset adjustments. I know I sound partial and I am, to what puts money in my pocket. There are a lot of good machines and builders out there and Hardinge isn't the cheapest by any means on the day you buy it, but it can pay you back on the right jobs.

This advice is offered from a guy who made a judgement error. Before you make that capital investment take a few dollars and a few days to test the product. You probably know what your own Hardinge will do now. Compare on another brand, get the dealer/seller to run a real job of 100 pieces or so in alloy steel to prove it out. Machine sales are tight right now so they should be willing to display their capabilities head to head.

I am looking for at least a 15,000# machine as you say. My 2" machine is that heavy, I certainly don't want to get a smaller machine to run bigger parts. I would also buy a T-51BB if I could find one with all the toys. Don't need the extra ponies of the T-65 for bar work really. All else seems the same.

Yes, mine is a T-51. Thanks for your input.


Think Snow Eh!
Ox

I am looking for at least a 15,000# machine as you say. My 2" machine is that heavy, I certainly don't want to get a smaller machine to run bigger parts. I would also buy a T-51BB if I could find one with all the toys. Don't need the extra ponies of the T-65 for bar work really. All else seems the same.

Yes, mine is a T-51. Thanks for your input.


Think Snow Eh!
Ox