New to CNC Looking at Haas TM1/2 How Versatile?

I have a need to learn CNC and obtain a mill in order to produce some medical device prototypes. My manual Bridgeport mill is on its way out the door. My needs are primarily to have the versatility to prototype as many varried devices as possible. I dont care about production runs, so spindle speed, pallet and tool changers are not a priority. I would like to be able to make helical things, and contour rounded sculpted surfaces besides other standard abilities. Maybe a 4th axis would be required, like a rotary table. The functions of a traditional mill are perhaps more attractive, but the abilities of a lathe would be nice to have at the same time. Reading posts in this section has lead me to a Haas TM-1 or 2 with a horiz/vert rotary table. The price is attractive, and it seems versitile. The simpler programing advertised for the TM-2 looks good as well. I use Solidworks and would like to make parts based on those files.

Can you think of any machines by any maker in a similar price range (50K or under) with more versatility for one-off productions? Are there any multifunction mill-lathe hybrids out there that fit the bill better?

I would suggest that no tool change is a mistake.

I would really recommend a VF-2. Much better for a rotary. Get Mastercam to convert your Solidworks to G-code.

You should mention materials and size with which you want to work.

.

Tool changer is a huge priority in my opinion. Even for small jobs.
I have a TM-1. It is a nice machine and cuts decent. But we almost never use it because it doesnt have a tool changer.

seriously for what you get trade for a manual bridgeport they are damn handy to have around, if even for secondaries, tapping, etc. In the event you need to make a part for a broke down vmc a bridgeport will many times get you running again. an enclosed vmc is a good choice as is an enclosed turning center with a tool changer.

I prototype med devices also and just got a Haas Mini. I do stainless, titanium, aluminium and all small stuff on it and I'm thrilled with it. I can tell you this, you want 1) full enclosure 2)tool changer and 3) tool changer I also second Wille06709 KEEP YOUR MANUAL MILL ! You use it to make fixtures while the Mini is working

Tim

The issue though is that the TM1 has a 4k spindle. That will not cut the mustard for small endmills used in medical work. I spent a year and a half prototyping on an V2 XT and found the slooooow as poop spindle really cost in cutters and time. But a .02 endmill cutting at 20sfm or so just didn't get it. The mini isn't much better. You really need more rpm. Then there's the whole coolant on the floor thing. The TM control is also not the same as a regular Haas control. So when you get more machines you'll always be mentaly changing gears.
CNC's should not have handles on them. I know there are some of you out there that like them, They are very limiting in what they allow you to do though.

That's true. I guess I'm of the opinion that it's close enough to a mini in cost, but it's very far away in both performance and features.
But that may just be me...

Get an enclosed machine if it's complex prototype work and 4th axis work. If it's small envelop work, then a Haas Mini might be your ticket.

What about robo-drill? 10k spindle, tool changer and smallish.

Spence

There's a member of this site by the name of Madlab, and I believe he runs a medical prototyping lab at USC?

He's got a Haas Office mill that he seems to be pretty happy with. In fact, I think I remember seeing a feature story on him in the Haas CNC magazine.

I have a TM1 at home and use a Haas mini at work. In the past I have used Bridgeport EZ trac.

For higher speed I use NSK spindle in both Haas machines. Works great on .01 to .06" tools.

The TM1 is good for a range of size. You can't get an engine block or axle housing on a Mini mill.

Lack of enclosure will make a royal mess at times.

On some proto types where I have to check everthing as I go, I find myself manual changing tools in the mini even though it has a tool changer.

EZ trac is nice to be able to rotate the head for angel work. If you have 4th axis then it's not an issue.

I use Mastercam to program both Haas machines. I recall the EZtrac was easier to program at the machine.

For what I call "interactive" prototyping, ie the operator is typically doing the design and the part comes on and off the machine several times while the design is tested and refined, the TM1 is a nice looking machine, and fully enclosed machines can be clumsy for this kind of work. A tool changer would be nice, but I don't have one on my prototyping machine (retrofitted BP mill) and its not the end of the world. However I do have a manual quick change system.

In my case the design and setup time for a prototype is typically way longer than the machining time, so I can live with my 5600 rpm spindle and no ATC.

For "push button" prototyping where the design is delivered to you completed and your job is to machine one as fast as possible to compete with other shops bids, clearly an enclosed VMC would be way better than a TM1.

If I had the budget, I'd go for the TM1 or TM2 with the optional tool changer. For a while Fadal tried to sell a similar machine but didn't do well with it and took it off the market. As you probably know a zillion companies are selling retrofitted BP type CNC mills, but since they cost about the same as a TM1 I wouldn't consider them, a TM1 is a better machine across the board.

The other machines to look at are the various bed mills from companies like www.southwesternindustries.com ,www.atrump.com and www.clausingindustrial.com . For similar cost to a TM1 you may get a more rigid machine, but unless heavy machining is critical, personally I still prefer a TM1 as a prototyping machine and the resell price will be higher.

If money is tight and the parts are on the small side, take a look at the machines from www.tormach.com . Users so far are pretty happy with them and they have a 4th axis option. Not a machine for fast metal removal though.

Paul T.

I agree with PaulT on almost everything he just said. If you're doing general across-the-board prototype work, then an open bed machine is really handy. But if you're doing a bunch of small 4-axis work and surfacing in tough medical grade materials, than a VMC is ideal.

It's all application specific, but if it's more of the latter scenerio, than there's lots of guys on this board that love their small Sharp VMC's with Fanuc's that seem to be reasonably priced.

Ohh, btw....keep the Bridgeport

A suggestion from a fellow prototyper (non-medical ; physics here)
Kunzmann WF series

Medical prototypes could mean anything from tiny inplants to setups for testing existing equipment.
I would not recommend this machine for real small stuff like Madlab does , you need higher spindle rpm`s for that.

For allround labwork I can highly recommend it tough.
No ATC , does have a fully universal table with c-axis showing up as readout only.
Can be switched to horizontal in 15 minutes.
(drilling deep(300 mm) 8 mm holes in big pieces for example)
Once I got the hang of it programming on the machine was easy , CAM no problem.
The only thing I regret is not getting a full fourth axis. (indexer)

IMHO where versatility is important instead of production this type can`t be beat.
It won`t fit your budget tough , I suspect a similar type of machine refurbed by DeckelDoc will.

No affiliation here , just a satisfied customer.

We have a TM-2 here, it is a joke of a machine. This one has a splash guard and a 10 tool changer.
1. No power and only 4000RPM
This means no power for large tools, and no rpm for small tools. So basically it is good for nothing. It can run a 3/8" endmill ok, any bigger and you either crawl or shake the machine to pieces. I have found the one thing it does OK at is drilling holes around .25", thats about it...

2. the tool changer
If I were so inclined, I could change tools about 2x as fast by hand.
10 tools is worthless. It means you dont have enough slots to set up tools for varied prototype work, and you have to have a cart full of them next to the machine.

3. the splash guard:
You cant spin a vice handle (this is inredibly frustrating)
It still makes a mess

4. The rapids are slooooowwwww
IT is painful to watch. While prooving out a program, I can take a sip of coffee before the spindle makes it down to the work (this may be a little exxageration). I rarely turn the rapid down from 100%


All this being said, the machine is better that an ez trak by a large margin (who tilts the head anyway?). The control is a regular haas with a couple extra features (like manual handle mode) which I dont use. It is a pretty good control.

I woudl recommend an enclosed machine. I avoid using the TM even to square up stock or face the back off of something. This is mostly because I cant run a facemill with coolant (without a raincoat) and that it is so weak and not rigid.


The machine is OK for awkward, unwieldy jig work.

yeah, so DONT GET IT.
PS rigid tapping is not standard

- Vegard

There are a bunch of companies making open bed "tool room" mills these days. Many are far better spec'd than the Haas. The one I chose over the TM2 has a 9K spindle, 12.5hp spindle motor, 500ipm rapids, and 12 tool changer, and I paid less than the TM2 for it. Shop around. There are better machines for the $ IMHO

Get the tool changer. you'll be glad you did.

Hey Micro, you didn't say which one you bought. I am also in the market for a TM, but I can't pull the trigger, cause I do alot of engraving, an 4K just ain't enough.

Would you care to share what kind you got?

Its a fryer MB 10. I got it with the Anilam 6000m control which comes standard with the faster rapids, spindle speeds, rigid tapping, and Ethernet. I changed the control parameters and had 800ipm rapids but decided it wasn't worth the stress on the machine. The spindle is rated for 12K rpm from the manufacturer but unless you get more expensive spindle motor, 9K is what the standard one is rated to. I also had to set up the networking but thats just a matter of loading DOS network drivers and getting the network.config file set up right.

http://www.fryermachine.com/toolroom/imagepop.html?img=MBR_Images/MB-10R_large.jpg

I do not know how large the parts are that you are looking to prototype, but I have been looking at small machines for the past 3-4 months trying to decide what I am going to buy next. One of the best "Bang For Your Buck" machines that I have seen is the Fanuc Robodrill Mate that is advertised on the Methods site. To be honest, there is not a whole lot out there that can beat its features and performance for the money; with exception to the Sharp mini giving it a close run; which provides larger travels for a little more money. I have read a lot of good replies on both of these machines on this site, and do not recall any bad replies with exception to cheap plastic lubrication lines coming loose on a Sharp mini and damaging the ways. If there is something out there better for the money, I would like to know about it. I will continue to watch this thread, since I have an interest too.

Hope this helps,
Wayne