Renishaw Macros on HV-630

We've got an HV-630 with a Mazatrol control that we'd like to use the Renishaw "skew" function macro on. The problem is that this macro uses a G-68 which is the same G code used to tilt the spindle. Mazak or Renishaw want big bucks to fix this problem.

Is there anybody out there that has overcome this or knows a company that writes custom macros for this Mazak?

JR

Yeah but aren't the output codes for G68 to tilt the spindle different? I don't have a machine with that spindle function so I'm shooting from the hip here. I'm assuming that in order for the spindle to tilt, you have other inputs like maybe a planar change and IJK stuff. Would that affect the theta for the probing? The probe would only use XYR. Then I think it sets the R to a variable which you'd have to use to pick up in the program. I don't use the skew funtion either except for things like A or B axis alignment.

I just have what the programmer tells me. He said when they've tried to use the macro, the control locks up. He told me that Mazak said "don't do that". Between what Mazak wants to add extra G codes to the ladder and what Renishaw wants for custom macros, I could buy a nice new truck.
JR

Between what Mazak wants to add extra G codes to the ladder and what Renishaw wants for custom macros, I could buy a nice new truck.

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That I can definately relate to....

Mazak (as well as many others) don't recommend using coordinate rotation as a modifier. Things can get real strange in a hurry. It's one thing to have a programmed and planned rotation (a hard set G68 in the program). It's another when using the probe to "adjust" for skew. You essentially add another variable to potential problems.

I have done this several times in the past, but it always ended up causing other issues during setup or part adjustments. With the interest of "keep it simple", I quit using it. Not everybody is "up to snuff" in trying to maintain tolerances and basically, this function added another variable to it.

I do however, use it to check the part load on some stuff. Basically, one of two things happen. The probe checks for skew, and if its out (hence a mis-loaded part), then the machine will either go into a alarm state, or the pallet gets kicked out to be reloaded. Either way, it doesn't try to adjust it to run it.

Another issue is with the programming itself (especially on a 5 axis). If you run the part skewed from the original program, you have to be sure that the entire program is formated to be able run skewed. There are many macros, G10s, 5-axis drill functions, 3D toolpaths (in alternating planes), ABC axis work, ..... etc..... where the machine cannot calculate for once a G68 is active. This is just not Mazak, this applies to many (if not all) machines on the market.

Not trying to deterr you from anything, just giving you info to be aware of....

Yep, I kinda figured this, but I gots to try.

This all came about from 2 operators talking to each other. Operator A runs a "Mighty Viper" which does mainly hole pattern work and uses the skew function instead of trying to align a 4K part. The Viper is using a Marposs probe with their macros. Operator B runs the Mazak. He wants to know why he has to line up his 20 lb. parts instead of using the skew command. Operator B has complained to the plant manager that we aren't doing anything to solve his problems. Oh how I love operator B.
JR

So, when you're speaking of "skew".... are you referring to the B-axis (4th axis) alignment? If that's the case, then the solution should be much simpler. I use 4th axis alignments all the time, especially with bigger, heavier parts. There might be a couple of things happening here. Are you using custom G codes to trigger the macro? Maybe the G-code mode isn't set right. Is he possibly missing some variable inputs from the macro call? Is the machine an indexer or full 4th? Is the macro sub corrupt? Plus, if its a 4th axis issue, you wouldn't be using a G68 at all.

Just a few things to possibly look into....

and I want to be sure of what you mean by "skew".... (which direction)....

On the Viper, they probe to find center of the part. The parts have a flat on them that must be parallel to the X axis or perpendicular to the Y. The "skew" macro touches off on 3 places on the flat and then "rotates" the X-Y axis to compensate. Rotation is allways done CW. The rotation amount is in one of the registers and will be something like 3.0124 deg or 357.1234 deg.
This works fine on this machine and everything is just peachy keen fine!

The operator on the HV wants to do this instead of lining up his little parts. The problem is that the spindle has to be in vertical mode to drill the parts. When he enters the macro with the G68, the control looks for other variables that control spindle angle. When it doesn't get them, it just locks up.

Mazak and Renishaw have both said not to use the skew macro on that machine. They both want big $ to change it. The operator complained to the plant manager who calls me and said to fix it.
When I told him how much it was going to cost he said there must be another way.

I'm just looking here to see if any of the guys on the board have run into this problem and found a cheap way to fix it. I've really got my doubts. I haven't seen all that many HV-630s out there.

The worst part about this is that with the fixture we have and the gage to check alignment, the old operator could align the part in less time then it takes to run the macro on the other machine. It's just a PITA operator!
JR

The worst part about this is that with the fixture we have and the gage to check alignment, the old operator could align the part in less time then it takes to run the macro on the other machine.

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This sounds like a better way to go even you had the macro to do this. If it takes less time to load the part properly than to run the macro, then this should be a no brainer. Time is money. The macro is just adding cost to the part.

I'd make him set up properly, check with alignment fixture, then run it. It saves the company money on time spent in the machine. If need be, just run a short macro to check the load.

I'd have to do some more digging if they're forcing you to make a macro happen. Question: Doesn't the head rotate based upon another G-code? I wouldn't think it would use a G68 to actually rotate the head.

The G68 from the spindle movement must be modal. So, move it to where you need it oriented, cancel the G68 and then try the skew function. Try to work backwards. Make the situation as simple as possible in a different setting and then work towards what you want to achieve, and fix problems as you find them. That way you can isolate issues to certain circumstances.


Husker

Husker, the problem as I read it is not the actual G68 functions,... its trying to get the probe to program and adjust for the G68. The program works, just can't probe for it...

Sorry guys, I'm in class all this week and just haven't had time to check this. I'd have to look at the program manual again, and it's late at night. The G68 is part of the head tilt routine. When you try and run the Renishaw macro, the control locks up when it hits the G68 because none of the other parameters for the tilt function are there.

When I have a chance, I'm going to look at the Marpose macros that are on another machine. If it doesn't use a G68 for the skew, I'll try loading those and see if they work.

Really, when it comes right down to it, this isn't worth it. What a PITA!
JR

Uhhhhh JR.... be careful loading in macro subs from another machine, especially when the makes are different and the probes are different. They could very well be using different functions, sub calls, custom codes, ladder switches, etc.

I use G68 in a 3D coordinate rotation as well. I've used it with a 45deg angle head on a HMC. Really handy when you're drilling at odd angles on the part with a repeated pattern. Now, I don't have a articulated head like the HV630, but I just think its odd that the head is actually using a G68 for tilting motion. I understand the program rotation, just not for the physical motion.

This really seems like a programming issue.... like something is missing or need that one extra line of code to make it all click. And I don't mean by "You need some special codes set up and this little gadget here...". More like everything is already there,... Just gotta get in the right order. Seems real close to working....

Yep, I'd be carefull, I haven't done anything yet.

Mazak says we can't use that macro on that machine and so does Renishaw. I hate to say it, but they might be right.

I just might get Marpose in here. I bet their probe and macros are cheaper than what Renishaw wants to write a macro.
JR

Maybe, maybe not. Worth checking into though. Also check out Blum.

But now you're going to be fitting a different system to the machine, a new learning curve and trouble shooting for the machine, etc. Instead of talking to Mazak or Renishaw about the macro programs, try searching online for some of the dealers. Some of these guys custom write macros for this type of thing and the cost may be considerably less than the "factory" doing this. I recall some place in Texas, but I can't think of their name. I'll dig up some for you. I'd look into this before thinking about switching probe systems....

JR... listen to psychomill! DO NOT load macros from a FANUC control into the Mazak. It won't work!

This G68 problem has NOTHING to do with Renishaw macros.

G68 is a G code from the control. If you read the entire Renishaw software you will not see G68 anywhere in it. The G68 is a Mazak command. The issue is because the Viper doesn't use G68 someplace else like the Mazak does. Basically you can't use the same G code for two functions.

The Renishaw software only measures two points, determines an angle and stores it. Simple. When you use the G68 you use the stored number.

G68X0Y0R#139 (#139 is where the error was stored, might be different).

I can see why Mazak is expensive. They would have to write the ladder not just to add a G-code for rotation but it would also be different than any other machine in the world. All machines use G68 for axis rotation.

My question is why do they use G68 for tilting the head? I'd change that if I could!

The new Renishaw software for the Matrix control allows probing wiht G68 active too!

Hope this helps, and I hope you didn't load the software and crash the probe!

Patrick

www.ncsprobing.com