Live tooled Sub spindle

I desparately need to add a live tooled, sub spindle Y axis machine to our shop to eliminate the wasted time of multiple setups for parts that are turned on both ends with offcenter milled areas.

My plan is to add a live tooled sub spindle lathe or integrex to our tool inventory. I'd like to bar load (feed with a bar loader) 2 1/2" stock and for anything larger we'll slug feed it with a Fanuc robot.

My dilemna is with our budget. I can afford either a new Mazak 250MSY or a used Integrex 200SY maybe even an SYII with the faster mill spindle.

I like the idea of the 40 tools on the integrex, and it has a bit more versatility with the B axis. If it was your money though, which route would you choose, and why.

I've pretty much looked at whats out there. I'd buy a Haas in a second, but they don't do Y axis on a subspindle machine. More fails to impress me, so Mazak looks like the bang for the buck choice.

I can't afford a new Integrex, and I'm really trying to decide if the new warranty is better than the possibilities with used...

Thanks for the help.

Stu

I would buy the 250MYS. Integrex is a nice machine but has slower tool change time and cost a lot more money for start up tooling. Is more complicated to run also.
I would go with new the warranty is well worth it.

WE HAPPEN TO HAVE BOTH MACHINES SO I CAN GIVE YOU THE CONS AND PROS WITH EACH. LIKE ORBEA SAID, THE INTEGREX IS A NICE MACHINE, BUT HAS A SLOWER (MUCH SLOWER) TOOL CHANGE TIME, HIGHER START UP COSTS AND IS INITIALLY MORE COMPLICATED TO RUN. ALSO, IT CAN BE A PAIN TO MAINTAIN SOMETIMES. THE PROS OF THIS MACHINE, ALMOST LIMITLESS CAPABILITY (COMPARED TO THE 250 MSY), TOOLING CLEARANCE IS AWESOME, AND QUALITY OF MILLING IS FAR SUPERIOR TO THE STANDARD DRILL/MILL HEADS ON A 250 MSY. AS FOR THE 250 MSY, THE CONS. ARE, NOT AS MUCH CLEARANCE FREEDOM, AND NOT ALL OF THE CAPABILITIES OF THE INTEGREX SY. PROS OF THIS MACHINE: FAST. TOOLCHANGES ARE MUCH QUICKER. WHAT YOU REALLY NEED TO FACTOR IN IS JUST HOW MANY PARTS ARE YOU GOING TO RUN AT A TIME. IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN HIGH VOLUME, REPEAT RUNS, I WOULD GO WITH THE 250 MSY IF THE MACHINE HAS THE CAPABILITY TO DO THE THINGS YOU NEED. IF YOU ARE GOING TO RUN SHORT RUN, OR ONE TIME RUN JOBS, OR HAVE DIFFICULT MILLING TO ACCOMPLISH I WOULD GO WITH THE INTEGREX. YOU MAY BE ABLE TO JUSTIFY THE LONGER CYCLE TIME OF THE INTEGREX ON LONG RUNS IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT JOB FOR IT. PERSONALLY, I SET THE INTEGREX UP 1-2 TIMES PER DAY ON AVERAGE. IT IS A VERY VERSATILE MACHINE AND MAKES IT VERY EASY IN OUR SHOP FOR ME TO RUN SMALL RUN JOBS ON ONE SET-UP. ALSO WITH THE SMALL RUN JOBS, THE SLOWER CYCLE TIME IS NOT THE ISSUE, QUICK SETUPS ARE. THIS MACHINE CAN BE A BIT INTIMIDATING AT FIRST, BUT IS VERY HANDY AFTER YOU GET USED TO IT. IF YOU HAVE ANYMORE QUESTIONS I WOULD BE GLAD TO ANSWER FOR YOU. SPECIFICS OF OUR MACHINES: INTERGREX IS A INT. 200 SY WITH A 2 INCH SPINDLE AND A SUBSPINDLE. HAS A 4 FT. BARFEEDER ON IT. THE 250 MSY HAS THE BIG BORE KIT (3 INCH), AND A SMW SERVO BARFEEDER ON IT. IT ALSO HAS A SUBSPINDLE, AND HIGH PRESSURE COOLANT. ANY QUESTIONS FEEL FREE TO ASK. HOPE THIS HELPED. GOOD LUCK.

You may want to read Skygod1021 posts a few threads down on " would you buy another mazak "page2. His QTN250MSY isn't doing so well.

SND, it sounds like skygod got a pretty bad lemon.

Just two weeks ago I was in a shop that had four bar fed QTN250MSYs. All of them run a minumum of two shifts, and perform flawlessly.

After reading about skygod's lemon, I wouldn't buy a new machine from any manufacturer without a written contract outlining certain requirements that the machine needs to meet.

I'm not terribly concerned about speed. I specialize in short run high $$$ parts and supplement the mix by manufacturing parts of my own design that we sell direct to the end user.

What I need is to not have to handle the stock for 2nd, 3rd or 4th op times. Typically I keep a set of standard tooling in our mills so setup time is almost nil, unless I need to swap in extra tools.

The Integrex gets the nod on this end for sure.

Clearly the Integrex is far more versatile. Speed really isn't the issue. Being able to add one of our robots is mandatory, but I've hacked many interfaces, and I'm certain I can whip out one for an Integrex or an MSY.

I gusee the real ??? comes in the sanity of spending 4200k +/- on a used machine tool. I've bought new before and had good luck, but I've done well with used also. the difference between a new Integrex and used prices can get a lot of repairs and maintenance done.

Thanks for the replies.

Stu

Stuart, if you're not too scared of going used, I just got an email the other day from www.PremierEquipment.com with some pretty nice looking Integrexes and Super Quick Turns.

There's a 2000 Integrex 200-SY for $180K, and a 1999 Integrex 200-SY for $160K. These are the prices they advertise in the email, so I imagine you could purchase the machine with some haggling for at least 10-20% less than that.

In my somewhat limited Integrex experience, both of the these machines should provide comparable results to the newer models. I'd try to steer clear of an older pre-Fusion640 model though.

Thanks Joe, Oddly enough I'm looking at that 2000 Integrex, and another 2003 Integrex ofered by them as well. What seems to puzzle me is that I have had offers by many, many dealears to sell me a machine, and if you look carefully at the pictures it's often the exact same machine. Now I'm betting that 5 or 6 dealers aren't working together and some are really nothing more than brokers looking for a finders or contingency fee. How's a guy supposed to find THE seller that has the machine actually physically sitting on the floor. I figure that's the guy to deal with, since ultimately they have to make the ya, nay decision on my offer.

Stu

don't forget "sub spindle" means
not a real spindle
it means tailstock with a chuck
radial tolerances are no where near a real spindle

just a thought

for what you do at your shop i would definitely think the integrex has the better capability than the msy. however, be very carefull when purchasing one of these used. they are a machine that has to be babied to keep them running. if you get one that has been abused, it will nickel and dime you. as for the 250 msy skygod is referring to, so you got a lemon. i havent heard any complaints about those machines. we bought ours used and it looked pretty well used and abused, and it has been almost flawless. they are a pretty tough machine for the most part.

Stuart, I've noticed the same thing about the used machinery dealers over the years. It's very rare for the dealer to actually have the machine on his floor. About 95% of the time they are just brokering the machine for a shop that's still running parts with it. I have no problem with this.

I do have a problem with used machinery dealers that just snag photos and descriptions from other dealers and put them up on their own website. When you call to get a quote, they say, "We'll get back to you...."

Then they call the dealer who they stole the ad from, and he says, "We'll get back to you..." Sometimes it may be a chain of 3 or 4 dealers all trying to get their hand in the honey pot.

I was selling a somewhat desirable HMC a few years back, and I was only working with one dealer. Within 3 weeks, almost every used machinery dealer on the internet had my pictures and description on their website. Even over a year after I sold the machine, it was still up on many of these other sites.

As for the used Integrexes from Premier, what price did they actually quote you for the 2000 model? I'd be interested to see the difference between their advertised price and their actual "let it go" price.

I've used several machines with sub-spindles and frankly all of them were as accurate as the main spindle. In many cases for tiny parts I'd use the sub to do the work since it could wrap up and stop faster using a collet chcuk than a 10" chuck on the main spindle. I'd say it's a lot more than a glorified tailstock.

I actually plan to use some 5" solid aluminum bar machined flat on 3 sides to fixture several parts to be machined at once. It would work with either live tooling, or an Integrex.

Stu

you are right
they are usually quite good
but they don't have to be
check the spec. sheet and look at the print
there just not the same quality of setup as a main spindle
everythings spins round when it's new
some things still spin round after a 6G hit in face
not a subspindle

i'm not saying subspindles are bad
i'm not saying don't buy one
just stating fact

[ 02-24-2007, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: wippin' boy ]

I think you'll find that most older Integrex 200's only have 2" bar capacity.

If the overall size and power will will meet your needs you may want to consider a new Integrex 100.
You can get an Integrex 100 with 2" bar capacity and the price tag is about 70K less than a new 200.

If you consider an Integrex I'd strongly suggest a lower turret. Something you may not find on a used machine. It's a huge time saver. Great for OD and ID turning tools. For certain jobs you can machine with both spindles simultanious.

for the short runs you do i would personally not recomment the lower turret. wont gain you anything in time savings.

Well, I guess it's a done deal now. Our dealer made me a smokin good deal (and swore me to secrecy) so I bought a brand spankin new Integrex 200-IV-S with a 2 1/2" kit so I can bar feed 2 1/2" stock. I skipped the lower turret, since I plan on using a trunion for a few jobs, and the lower turret would get in the way. It also requires me to jog my robot up and around it when slug feeding parts. We use a robot to pop slugs in the main spindle and remove finished parts off the sub spindle on our TL-25.

My plan is to set this up to bar feed 2" and 2 1/2" bar stock, and slug feed everything else. I figure we can whittle 80% of our short ruin jobs from 2" stock. Time will tell, but for the dozen or so piece runs that we do fairly often, I'm betting it's cheaper to burn stock into chips, than swap over to set up for 1" or 1 1/2" stock. I'm REALLY looking forward to having 40 tools in a magazine.

Anybody use the flash tool? Is it all hype, or the real deal.

Stu

sounds like for what your doing, you made the right choice. i think once you get used to this machine you will love it. may take a little while for you to love it though, so hang in there. also, maintenance, maintenance, maintenance. preventive maintenance is very important on these machines.

congrats
NOTHIN'
like new iron