Questions on older (1993) VF-3

Hi all,

I'm considering buying a 1993 VF-3.

I've got lots of questions, but let me start small.

1. How does one tell what HP motor is installed? The drive is nameplated for 10 hp. Could one reliably assume that its a 10 HP motor from the VFD rating? It was ordered with a gearbox and 10k spindle, if that makes a difference.

I like the machine and the price (although I'd like to run those by you guys in a subsequent post). But a potential problem right now is rigout from the shop its in, transportation and rig-in to my shop. First quote was $6,000. Needless to say, I'm trying to do better on that. I have a trailer that is rated to handle (just barely) its 12,500 lbs of catalog weight, but my trailer is a conventional leaf spring suspension affair, and I've heard that an air-ride trailer is highly recommended for moving these over the highway. Which brings me to my 2nd question:

2. Is an air-ride trailer a must? Are there any work-arounds - anything I could use as cushioning to offset the ride of my sprung trailer?

Thanks for any help / suggestions.

How far would you need to haul it? If its relatively local, are the roads decent? There are many areas of the country where a machine on an air ride trailer would take a far worse beating than it would in another part of the country on a spring suspended trailer, yet these machines survive trips to most anywhere largely none the worse for the trip.

300 Mile Trip

Thanks for the input, metlmunchr

The machine would need to travel aproximately 300 miles over mostly good smooth road, with a few rough spots here and there.

I might be able to take note of the problem areas on the way out to get it and then slow way down as I go through them. The rough spots are kind of isolated spots for the most parts - longest patch of rough road is probably just a few hundred yards.

My trailer would be loaded down pretty good, probably wouldn't take much to bottom it out with this much weight on it.

The older machines are lacking in the torque department, then again the new ones lack there as well. If it has the 10hp sticker on it, yes I would believe it is the Haas version of a 10hp machine, on the back or somewhere in the manual you will also probly find the 10hp is only rated at 10hp for a limited time. Further that 10hp, well don't expect it to be anything close to what a 10hp machine can do. There has been some discussion here about the actual HP and the advertised rating of these machines. Long story short, expect to make good parts but take a few extra roughing pass's.

I would rethink trailering the machine yourself, not saying it can't be done, it's just not what I would do. I am a machinist, business owner and not a Rigger. I do think the quoted cost is way high. I'd call a few other riggers, or the Local Haas outlet and ask them who they use, after all you will be giving them some business when you need to order some parts or need to buy that next new machine.

We have moved our machines ourself. No problems. No matter how cheap you can find transport, it will not touch going to get it yourself. We generally find 1K from most transport companies. Rigging is HIGH DOLLAR!! Load that thing yourself. I just plan plenty of time in and be careful. The fork you will need is probably a 15K fork and worth about 300 per day plus delivery.

On the trailer, the only time you will have a worse ride on a sprung trailer is when it is unloaded or lightly loaded. When you approach a trailers' max, the springs do their job and will ride similar to an air ride. You are not going to hurt that machine traveling 300 miles. Just make sure to drop the head down on wood and compress it. That will help fixture all three axis for the trip.

CNCME:

A 1993 model will have brush type servos. These can be a problem relative to carbon dust accumulation inside the motor. HAAS has a spec of something like --- leakage resistance from brushes to ground should not be less than 1 megohm. In the past we had problems with carbon dust. However, the brush type motors produce less noise for RS232 communuication than the brushless motors. However, I can solve this noise problem for you with our I232 Isolation System.

There are are some program bugs in 1993 machines that might or not be a problem to you.

On the subject of HP. Too many people confuse power with torque. There is a relationship. It is HP = K*T*RPM where K is a constant. More specifically for horsepower and #-ft of torque it is HP = T*RPM/5252. As an approximation you can classify under steady-state conditions an electric motor as a constant maximum torque device relative to speed.

Did HAAS have a 10,000 RPM spindle in 1993?

Suppose you had a machine with a 7500 RPM maximum speed spindle and no gear box, and that it produces 10 HP at the spindle. If you now slow this to 750 RPM, then the output power will be 1 HP (assuming constant torque capability). Put a 10 to 1 gearbox between the motor and spindle and assume 100% efficiency, then you have 10 HP at the spindle.

Do not compare the capability of a 2 HP Bridgeport gear down to 750 RPM with a HAAS 20 HP without a gear box.

If you are in a business that will keep a machine running most of the time I would suggest a new or newer machine. There have been a lot of improvements since 1993, and some negatives. We have a 93, 96, 98, and 2 2000 machines.

Leaf spring vehicles, even on smooth roads, have high frequency vibrations that are not present in air suspension vehicles.

.

I am not going to say that you can't move it or rig it yourself. However, if you have not rigged machinery before, I suggest having something that size rigged by professionals on both ends. Also I personally would not move it 300 miles without air ride. I have seen machines "shake apart" both electronically and mechanically when shipped on non-air ride trucks. Mainly due to high frequency vibrations more so than "bumps in the road". On the other hand, I have also seen machines show up fine that were shipped non-air ride, so it's a crap shoot. $6K sounds like a very high estimate to me... unless there is something highly unusual as far as getting it out of the existing building or getting it into its new location.

If you do ship it non-air ride or do it yourself, make sure to check every screw and nut possible on the machine (probably should do this anyway) to ensure they are tight before shipping. The vibrations and jostling can loosen things that you wouldn't think of (covers in particular, electronics is another concern). Make sure that the axis are locked by some mechanical means. Not sure on Haas but most machines are shipped with axis lock brackets for the x and y axis hopefully they are still available, if not Haas should be able to supply a drawing with the locations. Like Viper said, set the head down on a 4x4 block or something similar to support it during transit, but I wouldn't use the Z axis alone to hold the x and Y. We used a wooden frame "assembly" that was designed to set support the spindle, without setting the end cap of the spindle directly on the wood.

One other thing to consider when not hiring a rigger to move your equipment is, if he drops it off the truck, or the forklift, it's his a$$ in a sling.....if you do it.....well.....you may possibly be the owner of a VERY expensive boat anchor! I had a VF-0 rigged out of the previous owners factory and set in place in my garage. Now he only had to travel a little over 60 miles, but it only cost me $1,200.00 and he had to remove the Z axis motor and wiring harness to get in the door, and put it back together again once inside. My machinery dealer recommended this outfit to me and they were a crackpot outfit, the best guys I've had in here. I know a VF-3 is much bigger, but certainly not worth the $6,000.00 you got quoted for transporting. Good luck and hope what ever you do it all comes out good.

Best Regards,
Russ

Thanks!

Thanks to all who responded with suggestions advice and pointers!

I'm going to start a new thread and ask about the machine purchase itself.

Rigging

Your rigging cost is high, but not outrgeous since the rigger needs to transport all their gear out to load the machine, then bring it back with the machine so several vehicles and lots of mileage get involved.

I move huge machines for myself all the time. It's simple really when you look at the options and break it down.

First, I would NEVER bring a huge heavy machine home on a small trailer right at the capacity of that trailer, with a pickup. I quit that when my 3 axle traler hauling a Cat shed an axle on the freeway at 60 MPH behind a pcikup.... Way to exiting.

I can typically hire an over the road truck to pick up the load very reasonably. I doubt you'd pay much over $600 or $700 to hire the load moved for you and you can get an air ride truck for that. It's no big deal.

Then you just need a way to load it. For a modest fee you can typically have a machinery rental company deliver a forklift to the load site and another company have one at the unload site. Again, I doubt you'll have more than a grand in that. Just get one that's way bigger than you think you need, since the load is typically well forward on the forks of where it normally would ride. Have some skinny pieces of plywood cut to go over the forks to help keep the machine from sliding around on the castings, be careful and it's no big deal.

For smaller machines that you have to get out of tight places I often call a towtruck company that has a wrecker large enough to handle semis trucks. For a typically modest fee they can drive near the machine, squirt out their boom, pick it up, boom in and go load it on a trailer for you. You can reverse the process at the other end and it's cheaper than using a lift truck.

A simple trick if you need to move the machine around the shop to where you can get it is to mill out some big UHMW blocks with a hole 4 the leveling screws. Slide 4 of these under the machine and you can skid the heqaviest machines around with a very small power source. Small forklift, bobcat, come a long, etc.

Good luck.