TM-1 Problem = [

customworks83 · Mar 29, 2008

Hi everyone! I'm a 24 with 7 years experience (2 years at Northrop Grumman). I have a question regarding a TM-1 that I recently purchased. I'm the second owner of this bad boy and I have been using this machine two years before I baught it from the previous owner. after one month that I have it I get alarm # 123 which says spindle vector drive fault, over current, under curent..... you get the point. I'm at work so I don't have the complete details. I was wandering if anyone had a similar problem. I called Haas and they came to service it telling me that the pressure was low and during less than 2 hours of service the alarm didn't come on. I'm having the same problem again and I don't want Haas charging me $250 every time they come. have any of you had this problem as well? I work full time and attend college monday through thursday leaving only friday for Haas to come over so I can be there. thank you all.

tnmgcarbide · Mar 29, 2008

i had the same error on my vf3 . $2800 later it was fixed. probably a $1.19 capacitor or
OP amp , but they don't service YOUR board, just swap them out with a refurb .....and fix them someplace else. the mitsubishi vector drive failed.

I.M.E. everything mitsubishi ever made sucks ass. cars ,machine tools , stereos , tv's.
every one that i've owned was a POS.

it makes sense though, as convoluted and F-U'd as it may seem, it gets the machine up
and running asap with little hassle.

try that with a cincinnati or hardinge , and it'll cost you nearly double. they(a few years ago) actually fixed their crap, charged a mint to do it , and took a few weeks to get it
repaired.
$130 / hour , including travel time from 60 miles away. haas charged $90/hr and had the parts
in the van.

PBMW · Mar 29, 2008

You're lucky
Haas has NEVER had the part in the van. NEVER!!
They charge me $125 an hour from the time they leave their shop till they get back to their shop. They are 30 miles away. They charge me 2.5 to 3 hours each way. No traffic.....
I call them on it and they go "Oh...well that's what we always charge for going that far"
I just don't call them any more. Found someone else to fix my last Haas in the shop.

caltex1 · Mar 30, 2008

When that alarmpooped up on the vf the bill came out close to 2000.00 :bawling:

Donkey Hotey · Mar 30, 2008

customworks83 said:
after one month that I have it I get alarm # 123 which says spindle vector drive fault, over current, under curent..... you get the point.

You're going to need to be more specific. Are you only getting the 123 error or are you also getting over current, under current alarms?

In a Vector Drive machine, 123 is something wrong with the Vector Drive or possibly the encoder. Unless I'm mistaken, your TM-1 doesn't have a Vector Drive--though the control may still indicate that failure.

In a Vector Drive machine, all of the 325V DC power in the machine is rectified and sent out to the axis amplifiers as well as through switching circuitry to the spindle.

In your machine, there is a 325V DC power supply where the Vector Drive normally lives. It only rectifies the incoming power. The thing driving your spindle is a higher amperage amplifier next to the three axis amplifiers. If you look inside the cabinet, you should be able to identify it (4 amplifiers with wires going from one to the next, on the left side).

My suspicion is that unless you're getting other errors, that amplifier is starting to go bad.

Of course: this all assumes that you're getting stable voltage into the machine (single phase I'm guessing?) and that the DC power supply is between 325-350V.

:crazy:

IF YOU ARE NOT COMPLETELY COMFORTABLE AND EXPERIENCED WITH HIGH VOLTAGE ELECTRONICS, STAY THE HECK OUT OF THAT CABINET. EVEN AFTER SHUT-DOWN, THERE IS ENOUGH VOLTAGE IN THE CAPACITORS TO BLOW YOUR FINGERS RIGHT OFF. NO JOKING. THERE IS A HIGH VOLTAGE INDICATOR THAT WILL GLOW FOR 10-15 MINUTES AFTER SHUT-DOWN. IT'S NOT KIDDING EITHER. IT'S NOT SAFE TO WIGGLE WIRES UNTIL THAT SUCKER IS OUT. GOT THAT?

You have been warned.

DPPMFG · Mar 30, 2008

customworks83 said:
alarm # 123 which says spindle vector drive fault, over current, under curent.....

Check the incoming power first my haas machines are very picky about it.

I power is good then pull the drive and send it in for rebuild.
The shop we use is 1st rate.
email me if you want the contact info.

customworks83 · Mar 30, 2008

Oh gosh these prices really scare me but I have to get it repaired anyways. I don't know any local repair guy that works on Haas and the people at Haas Torrance in CA aren't the most helpful either. I don't know much about electricity so I stay away from it. the guy that sold me the machine was nice enough to do the electrical work on my garage for free

and it worked fine with no problems. The alarm 123 says clearly what I mentioned before: "spindle vector drive fault, over current, under curent overvoltage..." I will go home after work (sorry guys I'm a work-a-holic) and type it down word by word :typing:

. My machine was wired single phase and the Haas guy tested the voltage with a volt meter... is there a possibility that my house is draining more current and that's why I get that alarm? I will give Haas a call monday morning since their customer service are only girls and they have no clue what I'm talking about. I asked to talk to the service manager and she said he called in sick. Thank you all.

customworks83 · Mar 30, 2008

123 SPINDLE DRIVE FAULT - Failure of spindle drive, motor or regen load. This can be caused by a shorted
motor, overvoltage, overcurrent, undervoltage, failure of drive or shorted or open regen load. Undervoltage and
overvoltage of DC bus are also reported as alarms 160 and 119, respectively.

This is the alarm that I get. I just found it on the TM-1 OPERATOR'S ADAMANTIUM IN THE HAAS web site.

Donkey Hotey · Mar 30, 2008

Okay, you're getting a single error, you're on single phase power and Haas already checked the incoming voltage. That narrows it down.

The machine will report undervolt or overvolt alarms if the incoming power becomes a problem. I doubt that's it. I doubt the DC power supply is having problems.

That leaves: the spindle motor, regen resistor or the drive amplifier.

Can you be more specific about when the alarm occurs? Is it just random while the machine is sitting idle? Is it random but only while cutting? Is it on spindle startup? Spindle shutdown (for a toolchange or end of cycle)? How many 'in cut hours' on the spindle?

Here are a couple of related threads:
http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55088
http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=417592

Keep in mind that these talk about the Vector Drive. You don't have one but the symptoms apply to that amplifier. The rest of the diagnosis (spindle motor, regen resistor, etc) are the same.

customworks83 · Mar 30, 2008

This problem comes up after 20 min. average of the machine runing not counting warm-up program (about 10 - 15 min.). Then I try re-setting the alarm and running the same program and the same alarm comes up 4 min. after. How can I know if it is the spindle vector drive? I don't want to pay $2,000 + and find out that it wasn't the spindle vector drive. I'm not very familiar with their service. thank you.

Donkey Hotey · Mar 30, 2008

It won't be the vector drive because you don't have a vector drive. It's either the motor, the regen resistor or the amplifier.

You still haven't been specific about when it flags the alarm.

Is it mid cut, spindle running and the machine just stops with a 123 error?

Is it during spindle startup or slowdown?

I'm going to guess that you need that amplifier but it would be good to first eliminate the regen resistor (cheapest) and the motor.

customworks83 · Mar 30, 2008

It would be best defined as Mid cut. I get the alarm in the middle of my program (3D rough surface) and if I try and run it again it will flag the alarm after 10 min. or so. You think it's a good Idea to go to WestTech and ask them before going to Haas??? I am planning on attending westTech this comming week (monday thru thursday) and ask them? I will probably have time tuesday or is it the same thing as asking Haas in torrance?

Donkey Hotey · Mar 30, 2008

The Torrance and Anaheim HFOs are well represented at the Haas booth. It's a mix of their staff and people from the factory.

They aren't going to be able to tell you anything you haven't already heard here. They're not being secretive. They just don't have any good news for you. That error only points to a certain number of possible failures.

If you were wealthy beyond your dreams, the fix is still one of these items:

Spindle Amplifier (my money is on this one)
Regen Resistor (it doesn't sound like this one because it's failing in-cut, not at spin-down).
Motor (could have a winding that is starting to short when it heats up--but I doubt it).
Dead fan(s) not cooling things properly.

Have you tried running the cabinet with the door open and a big fan blowing across the amplifiers? How is the airflow? Is the fan still working (above the amplifiers)?

Because it doesn't seem to do it during the spindle warm-up, it sounds like it's load related (heat). If you just spin the machine up to 4K (not cutting), how long does it take to error: 10 minutes, 20 minutes, never?

You said you bought it from somebody you know. The only way to really, really eliminate things is to swap them. The HFO repair guy will make an educated guess (as we've already done) then swap the component (amplifier) and see if the problem occurs again.

Can the guy you bought it from swap the spindle drive amplifier with one of his other machines so you can test it?

customworks83 · Mar 31, 2008

These are all good ideas D.H. The person that I baught it from doesn't own a shop, he's a mechanical engineer working for Boeing and he had this machine as a hobby. The machine doesn't even have that many hours on it, even the Haas technician told me that the machine was still a baby compared to other machines he's seen. Since I keep this machine in my garage, there is no air conditioning but the technician said that it wasn't a problem. no I haven't run it with the door panel open and hafe a fan blowing... maybe I should try that. I just wrote down the possible things that may cause this alarm as you mentioned and I will show that to the technician. Thank you D.H. I will call Haas and make an appointment for this friday.

Donkey Hotey · Mar 31, 2008

You're paying labor rates as well as parts on that service call. You don't have to show them the list I made. They already know that it's one of those things. Since it's intermittent, they're going to unplug the spindle and regen resistors, verify the resistance values, then swap the amp.

Have you identified the spindle amplifer yet? If you don't know which it is, post a picture of the left, inside of your cabinet and I'll tell you which one it is. It's most likely the right-most of the four amplifiers. They're vertical boxes with wires going from one to the next. The spindle amplifier is probably labeled 45 Amp or something like that.

You're going to pay for that amplifier anyway. If you think you can replace it, you'll at least save the service call (a couple of hundred bucks).

customworks83 · Mar 31, 2008

Thanks. I will take pictures of it tonight after class. Are you local? I live in Compton, LA area. Should I wear latex gloves or any special precautions besides shutting off the breaker box when swapping the amp? I'm not very familiar with electricity.

Airborne · Mar 31, 2008

I always wondered how Haas could afford all those vans with men in uniform. Sounds like they're making a separate fortune off service alone. What a brilliant company.

Donkey Hotey · Mar 31, 2008

Well, if you're not comfortable with electricity, maybe it's better to let them fix it. One zap of static and you could cook the Motion Controller board...that's...uhh..$$$...no, wait, it's $,$$$. A couple of hundred might be worth spending in the grand scheme of things.

customworks83 · Apr 6, 2008

Just as DH predicted, it was the spindle amplifier that was malfunctioning. Haas came by yesterday and they swaped it right away. $700 later problem was solved. money is not the problem, but the fact that they weren't awailable for almost 3 weeks. Thank you everyone!
-Andres

Donkey Hotey · Apr 6, 2008

Glad to hear that it worked out. $700 ain't bad. If you had a higher horsepower spindle, that failure would have been $2000-3000.

I'm curious why it died, if the machine hasn't seen hard use. We have a TM-2 at my day job. It's been beaten to death since they installed it two years ago and many days, it's running two-shifts. It hasn't had a hiccup yet.

Oh well, you're running again. That's what matters.

Greg

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