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VF-1 locks up on warm days!

landm1

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Location
Paso Robles, CA
Hello,

I am stumped. We have a 1997 VF-1 that locks up on warm days. In the afternoon on a warm day the machine will be in the middle of running a program and everything locks up, the spindle is running, the CRT appears normal but the machine is not moving, X,Y or Z. The key pad dose not beep nor do any keys do anything.
We have to turn off the power, I think the normal power off, let the fan cool off the boards in the back, power up and run like nothing happened.
In the mean time last year the the processor board went bad and I replaced it, upgraded the software. Shortly after we lost the Spindle Drive unit, replaced it, no problems.
But on hot days it still locks up. Haas swaped video boards for me, same deal,
I replaced the Mocon board, same deal.
I replaced the power supply, same deal.
I replaced the low power board, same thing, there is a temp sensor on that board, just a hunch.
We also replaced the Video board, same deal.

I had a spare key pad ribbon cable, hooked it up, no help.
I also replaced the low power transformer, no help.
Yes, I tried running it with the work light off.
I have not messed with it for a few months, we run it with a fan and the e-cabinet open, it runs every day but now that it is warming up it is on my table again.
All the fans are running and the machine runs real good. Our input power is at 208 V and I have six other Haas VF machines that have never done this.
Next I am thinking of the I.O. board, I have had those go bad in other Haas machines we have but I do not think it would lock thing up like that.
I did have the guy from M.T.S. spend a day with it last year, He tried a few things, no help.
This forum is really cool, the common thread seem to be that o.e.ms are not a lot of help with this stuff, it is fun to see the industry returning to it's roots,
"running it means you know how to fix it".

Have a nice day!

LandM1
 
Get a hair dryer, not a hot air gun.

Use this to heat different areas of the electronic components and try to provoke failure. Then use a spray can of circuit cooler to probe different areas to try to restore operation. You may be able to narrow down the location.

.
 
Hair dryer!

Gar,

I can feel my trouble shooting skills improving already, I am impressed with the quality of answers I have received in a very short period of time. I think I will try the hair dryer first, I would really like to find out what component could do something like that.

Have a nice day!

LandM1
 
When the machine locks up, is it in position at the end of a move, or does it stop at some random position part way through a single command?

Have you gone over all the obscure parameters and settings to make sure they are set as recommended as per the factory?
 
HuFlungDung

When the machine locks up, is it in position at the end of a move, or does it stop at some random position part way through a single command?

Have you gone over all the obscure parameters and settings to make sure they are set as recommended as per the factory?

I will check it out this week, I do not know if it completed the block or not.
Never thought about that!

I have been through the parameters a few times, perhaps I will spend a little more time with that.

Have anice day!

LandM1
 
I have had similiar issues on hot days as the voltage drops in our area, "Brown Outs". One machine in particuliar will alarm out, shut down or just stop. When it acts up I will check the incoming leads to verifiy power to the machine. More often then not it is the problem.

Another issue has been the breakers in my electical box went funky on me. Two of them in 11 years stopped making good contact and replacing them fixed the issues I was having. That is the main electical cabinet for the shop not the machine.

It's kind of a long shot, but something else to look for.
 
its not the first time for this to happen with a haas...

HAASQUALITY.jpg
 
Voltage

I have had similiar issues on hot days as the voltage drops in our area, "Brown Outs". One machine in particuliar will alarm out, shut down or just stop. When it acts up I will check the incoming leads to verifiy power to the machine. More often then not it is the problem.

Another issue has been the breakers in my electical box went funky on me. Two of them in 11 years stopped making good contact and replacing them fixed the issues I was having. That is the main electical cabinet for the shop not the machine.

It's kind of a long shot, but something else to look for.

I guess it could be low voltage and it might be very brief, I have heard that if the low voltage to the boards drop that will stop things also. I have checked the voltage before but I will try again thie week, we normally have good 208 volts.
You would think that if the breaker on the wall was bad it would have to be reset. I think this is my list for now.

1. Blow dryer trick (boards)
2. observe if the block on the machine has been completed.
3. Try playing with the parameters
4. Swap breakers
5. A/C the cabinet, I do not favor this too much, I would still like to find the componet causing the problem.

Have a nice day!

LandM1
 
Fan setup!

its not the first time for this to happen with a haas...

HAASQUALITY.jpg

Tatyooed_machinist,

Yes I do feel a little better knowing I am not the only one chasing this gremlin. Bob, the M.T.S. guy said he knew of another guy having the same problem, same fix, open the cabinet, use the fan, worked for years.
Long term, those warning signs pasted on the back could set you up for really expensive trip to court if someone gets hurt, I am pretty sure your insurance company is going to take a "rain check" as well.
I do fell your frustration.

Have a nice day!

LandM1
 
I had a simular problem with my new mini mill. It would sometimes do what yours is doing and other times it would just shut off and re start. It ended up being the main processor. My shop will get over 100* in the summer and i never had another problem.

You could install a fan. A electric radiator fan would move lots of air and they are easy to mount. It would be better to suck the air out of the box with some sort of filtered vent. If i left my cabinet door open with fans blowing on the boards i couldnt imagine how much dirt would pack in there. Just a thaught..
 
Processor board

I had a simular problem with my new mini mill. It would sometimes do what yours is doing and other times it would just shut off and re start. It ended up being the main processor. My shop will get over 100* in the summer and i never had another problem.

You could install a fan. A electric radiator fan would move lots of air and they are easy to mount. It would be better to suck the air out of the box with some sort of filtered vent. If i left my cabinet door open with fans blowing on the boards i couldnt imagine how much dirt would pack in there. Just a thaught..


Seekins,

One of the things that happened last year, long after the machine started locking up on warm days, the processor board died. Just turned it on one day and the screen was full of mush.
Replaced the processor board and upgraded the software, everything worked fine. I was hoping that would solve it but unfortunatly no impact.
The machine hasa never turned off or reset, it is real consistant.
The only board left in the machine in the past year is the I.O. board but that is mostly a bunch of switches taking orders from the other boards but hat is the frist board I am going to hit with the hair dryer.
I was thinking at one point the ribbon cable from the processor board to the other boards but I think I swaped those out.
Worst case the airconditioner sounds prettry good, I do not want to add any more fans. I did that years ago on Bridgeport Boss 9 machines, that was cool, Kieth in Corona was selling a kit, round piece of sheetmetal, round automotive airfilter, wing nut and about a 3" bolt and an 8" muffin fan.
These things would clean the air in the shop but if I am going to admit defeat at least I want to have a new technology(air conditioner) to try out because here in Paso it dose break 110 degrees in the summer a little too often, "it's a dry heat".
Once again I would like to add how impressed I am with the quality of responces I have recieved, "thank you to all who have taken time to respond".

Have a nice day!

LandM 1
 
If the other Haas s are not konking out , then why not let go of the high temperature idea.

Maybe The machine just faults out due to some defective component. and the weather just happened to be warm , and had nothing to do with the fault.

On our haas machines the machine always tells us that the panel is hot. ( we usually find out that we hadn't cleaned the filter of the A/c ....Yep All our cncs hace the panel A/c too.).

And I really dont like the hair dryer idea. Why You could end up causing a new failure !!.
and then have two problems to solve !!

Good Luck.
MJM
 
sudtechcnc:

A hair dryer and circuit cooler are very effective test tools. Typical hair dryers exit temperature is less than 180 deg F. If ambient temperatures in the range mentioned, 110 max, are causing malfunction, then what is the difference if when the machine is colder and working OK you add a little heat to provoke the problem? 70 deg C is a typical maximum operating temperature for many plastic ICs. This is 158 deg F. With typical use of a hair dryer for this type of test you will probably not reach 158 deg F.

If you cause some other components to fail with the hair dryer, then they were probably marginal.

Often times the heat test will provoke the problem, but cooling restores normal operation. This could be due to thermal expansion and a poor joint somewhere.

If other machines in the shop work OK at high room temperature, then that does not imply that this machine is not temperature sensitive and have a problem. I have seen and heard enough cases where Haas has failed because of temperature that I would suggest their packing density is too high, inadequate air supply, or inferior components may be the problem. I really do not expect inferior components. However, if HAAS has gone lead free this could be a source of trouble to look for in the future. Tin likes to grow wiskers and they are very hard to find.

At this point in time the particular board or other component causing the problem needs to be identified.

The 12 and 5 V power supply voltages need to be checked before and after the problem. This means checking both the DC voltage and AC ripple.

.
 
Gar,

Thank you for the insight, I sure was hoping I would make something fail so I could move on, here is some of todays results.

Inside the shop tempature was 65 F.

Tuned on machine, warmed up and started, everrthing working well.

Incomming pole to pole power 204 V.

Power going to boards 5.3 V., 12.5 V.

Hit low power board with blow dryer, no effect.

Disconected stack fan, blew hot air into stack, no effect.

Connected stack fan.

Started blowing on I.O. board, after about 2 minutes of randomly heating the entire I.O. board machine locked up. Shop temp still 65 F. Incoming power, 204V. 5.3V, 12.5V.
No clear way to tell if the machine was at end of block, I would assume not because no round numbers were present, coolant and spindle still on.

Turned off machine by the power off switch on control panel, electric break dose not engage.

Turned on machine, homed. shop temp still below 70 d.
Incomming power 204v, 5.3V, 12.5V

Started program, coolant on, all is fine, 204V, 5.3V, 12.5V

Heated I.O. board again, no impact, heated quaderants of I.O. board, no impact.

Tried stack again, disconected fan, no impact.

Machine is still opperating shop temp still under 70 d.

Went back to low voltage board, no impact.

Heated all of the breakers in the cabinet, no impact.

Heated power supply, machine locked up. 204V, 5.3V, 12.5V.

positon was still not on any common numbers, more than likely not on E.O.B.

Turned off machine from power off switch, electric break did not engage.

Turned on machine, homed started program, no problems.

Heated power supply, no impact.

Hearted I.O. board, no impact.

Hearted breakers and every other component, no impact.

I am still not too upset, I am just happy I found a new way to test things my employees were real impressed with the blowdryer.

Shop is still under 70 deg, power all good machine is running good.


Spent time comparing parameters with my other machine. Some machines had the, I think the name was "overheat timeout", set at 250, as this one was. One was set at I thinkl 240000, I changed it to 24000.

Restartd machine, the fan has not been on all morning as with most mornings,
again, in the winter it dose not need a fan. ran fine.

11:00 a.m. machine locked up, temp 80 deg in shop. Voltages good.

Homed and restarted machine, no problem, voltages 204V 5.3V, 12.5V.

Blow dryer all components in the box, no effect.

11:30 a.m., 80 deg+, machine locked up, fan is still not on.

restartd again, all is fine, voltage unchanged.

Heated all components, no impact.

12:00 a.m., loched up again, good voltage

Turned off on control panel no electric break.

Homed machine, applied fan, temp 85 deg, voltage good.

*** Due to the fact that I got two components to cause the same result, (lockup), in the cool morning and could not be repeated was not the result I was looking for. I think my next move is the A/C recommendation.
Just for the fun of it, just to be technical, there are a lot of wires twisted into the plastic conduits, I woulder if this could set up some kind of a field, like an electro magnet?
If anyone can make and sence out of this chess match let me know, I think I will get crackin on the A/C in the morning. One comment I forgot about using regular muffin fans, it dose go over 100 d. here, you can push that heat around all you want but it can only do so much.

Like other people were mentioning, these machines might be built to work fine if all things are working well, a lot of bang for the buck in the Haas product, but I think sometimes, like this machine, that stratgy has its downside. Most of the components have been replaced in after this probem started a couple of summers ago.

Still real impress with the advice.

Thank you!

LaandM1







sudtechcnc:

A hair dryer and circuit cooler are very effective test tools. Typical hair dryers exit temperature is less than 180 deg F. If ambient temperatures in the range mentioned, 110 max, are causing malfunction, then what is the difference if when the machine is colder and working OK you add a little heat to provoke the problem? 70 deg C is a typical maximum operating temperature for many plastic ICs. This is 158 deg F. With typical use of a hair dryer for this type of test you will probably not reach 158 deg F.

If you cause some other components to fail with the hair dryer, then they were probably marginal.

Often times the heat test will provoke the problem, but cooling restores normal operation. This could be due to thermal expansion and a poor joint somewhere.

If other machines in the shop work OK at high room temperature, then that does not imply that this machine is not temperature sensitive and have a problem. I have seen and heard enough cases where Haas has failed because of temperature that I would suggest their packing density is too high, inadequate air supply, or inferior components may be the problem. I really do not expect inferior components. However, if HAAS has gone lead free this could be a source of trouble to look for in the future. Tin likes to grow wiskers and they are very hard to find.

At this point in time the particular board or other component causing the problem needs to be identified.

The 12 and 5 V power supply voltages need to be checked before and after the problem. This means checking both the DC voltage and AC ripple.

.
 
You did not check ripple, but since the DC voltages remained constant it is unlikely there was oscillation. Still I would check for ripple.

The 5 V is a little high but maybe that is where HAAS wants it to get 5 V at the boards. I am not at the shop so I can not see what our machines read.

Is there any way you can get the HAAS fans to run continuously?

So far I think your failures were unrelated to the test heating. Circuit breakers are an unlkely cause unless tripped and then you would know because you would have to reset them.

When your processor gets hung and you can not get any action, then it is most likely the processor chip, associated chips, memory, or power supply. This can include cables.

Besides getting the internal fans to run all the time get another big fan to blow air into the processor area and see if this reduces the problem.

You can also use an insulated rod to apply pressure to boards to see if mechanical force will have an effect. The mechanical design used for mounting boards in the HAAS cabinet does not make troubleshooting easy.

.
 
Last edited:
Stick more fans in it.

It sounds like the CPU is freezing. I dunno what kind of heatsink those things use on their processors, but check that it's got good thermal contact IF you can even remove it. Put some of that high performance thermal grease on it (arctic silver 3) The only thing short of cooling the ambient air is to put MORE through the cabinet. I see a big cooling fan at the bottom, and a few SMALL vents at the top. I'd put 2 fans blowing in on the bottom (because hot air rises) and put more vents on the top. It would probably be as effective as leaving the cabinet open and blowing big fans in. I've overclocked, and addressed cooling problems on LOTS of computers, and had a LOT of success. I run my P4 2.8 @ 3.44 GHZ ALL THE TIME. I've RARELY Seen a BSOD, and when I did, it was due to a problem I created. You can get those big industrial cooling fans @ surplus center to cool the inside of the cabinet. :cheers:
 








 
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