Antique 1 HP motor with numbered wiring question

I got an OLD belt driven tapper (looks like a drill press) probably made in the late 1800's to early 1900's and the 1 HP motor is probably made from somewhere in the 1930' to the 1950'.

It was wired for and using household 120V but the case says 240V.

I pulled the cover and there are 4 wires, but they are all black, and they all have a small aluminum band wrapped around and crimped to them numbered #1,#2,#3, and #4.

The two that were wired to the 120V power cord were #1 and #4.
The #2 and #3 were wired together under the cover.

My MIG welder and powder coating oven both use 240V so I want to wire the "NEW" drill press for 240V as well.

Any one know which wires go to the two (out of phase) 120V power, the neutral and ground?

I'm used to the red and black both going to either of the two phases of 120V, the white goes to neutral and the green is Ground.

I'd look for a diagram on the side of the motor somewhere.

Usually there's a plate somewhere on the motor explaining what the numbers mean, and how to wire it. Hopefully the information wasn't on a long lost sticker or paper tag. Things were usually on plates rivited on the side back then.

Trying to do some logic thinking, if those 4 ends has connection 2 and 2; its only two windings.
Serial connection = high voltage. Parrallell= low voltage. (If this not is so, the following ressonemnts will fail!)

As you decribe this one is serial (=high voltage)
If so you should be able to run it on 120V and metering the amp in th circuit, when you are drilling quite hard you should possibly be able to reduse the speed quite much, and the amps should be lass than such motor will use.
If so the conclution is, the 240V motor has just been used at 120V.
If the motor use the amps normal for 1HP a 120V the motor is rewired, and the label is not changed.

I have seen motors ran at to low voltages for 8-10 years in industrial environment, and still doing their job, just because the motor was overzised.

dsk

Added:
If you run it at 120V and get approx half voltage between 2/3 and 1 or 4 it is another signal about the motors running at low voltage, but is wired for high voltage.

dsk

There is no ground wire on those motors. ANy ground that you want has to be connected to the case or frame.

The motor you have is a typical single phase of that era.
To me it sounds as if the motor is already wired for 220.

If it were wired for 120 I would expect something like 1+3 to go to one side of the line and 2+4 go to the other side of the line.

Running a motor at 1/2 voltage is not a problem. You just get 1/4 the power from it.

There is no need for a neutral with 220.

Pierce Butler said:

There is no ground wire on those motors. ANy ground that you want has to be connected to the case or frame.

The motor you have is a typical single phase of that era.
To me it sounds as if the motor is already wired for 220.

If it were wired for 120 I would expect something like 1+3 to go to one side of the line and 2+4 go to the other side of the line.

Running a motor at 1/2 voltage is not a problem. You just get 1/4 the power from it.

There is no need for a neutral with 220.

Click to expand...

Yes, I know it's wired for 240, it's just that what numbered wires go the the 120V sources and where do the other two go?

I could just put it back to the 120V set up, but want it wired for 240V, however, I don't know how to decipher the numbered set up as my experience with wiring electrical devices higher than 120V much less than those who posted as it sounds like "simple, it's just this way" but without experience it sounds confusing.

My MIG welder, Oven, and every other 240V device that I had to deal with use 3 wires so I got that easy, black=120V, red=another 120V of another phase, and white= neutral, but 4 (and uncolored wires at that) I don't know how to wire, and there is an info plate, just nothing about how to wire it either way, just who made it and the standard motor info.

We know that #1 and #4 had to be one power and neutral with #3 and #4 wired together worked for 120V.

If one of the other wires (#3 or #4) get the second phase of 120V, which one is it, and what do I do with the last remaining wire?

Could it be that one set (#1 and #4) are one phase of 120V and neutral, and the other set (#3 and #4) are the other phase of 120V and neutral?

If so, how do I test the wires to determine which of the wires is the power wire and neutral wire?
I assume if one were ground, it would show continuity to the case.

For 230 volt operation:

motor wire #1 goes to one side of the 230 line and #4 goes to the other.

#2 and #3 get tied together and are not connected to anything else.

Ground goes to the motor case.

Neutral is unused.

If you are still having problems I suggest you call an electrician.

1) what kind of motor is this?

2) does it have a capacitor mounted to its exterior - a round or bulging housing on the outside?

3) does it have any brushes or a commutator inside?

4) can you put a picture up to describe it further?

Jim

Jim,

Based on his description I am betting it is a repulsion induction motor. The age and number of leads make it likely. Cap start motors usually have more leads.

Pierce Butler said:

For 230 volt operation:

motor wire #1 goes to one side of the 230 line and #4 goes to the other.

#2 and #3 get tied together and are not connected to anything else.

Ground goes to the motor case.

Neutral is unused.

If you are still having problems I suggest you call an electrician.

Click to expand...

So, are you telling me that it has two 120V power wires, one 120V going to wire #1 and the other 120V goes to wire #4 and there is no neutral or ground?

I don't see how that will work.

Or are you telling me to connect the two out of phase 120V wires to the same wire #1 and the other #4 goes to the neutral wire, and connect the remaining two #2 and #3 together?

If so, wouldn't both 120V wires now send back both phases of 120V back to the circuit breaker box causing both sides of the breaker box to be both phases, and causing the house hold voltage to jump to 240?

I don't trust my second interpretation of your posting either.

jim rozen said:

1) what kind of motor is this?

2) does it have a capacitor mounted to its exterior - a round or bulging housing on the outside?

3) does it have any brushes or a commutator inside?

4) can you put a picture up to describe it further?

Jim

Click to expand...

I have not pulled it apart yet.

The case is huge and there is one flip top lube attachments above each end bearing and another one below the end bearings on the side of each one.

The only bulge is the wire housing and there is nothing else in there, and the unit looks like it was meant to be rebuilt from the look of the way that the outer casing was built.

The tag has this info and the underlined parts are the blank area that was stamped.


411----Wagner Electric Corp----401
Alternating Current Motor type RA
Frame 203 MOD C65---M---181
1HP 1750 RPM Phase 60 cycles
110V 13.2amps----220V 6.6amps
Cont. rating 40 C NO 2A
Code G SK Protector 27E

If I did tear it apart, how do I tell where the two power wires go and what to do with the remaining wires?

If it is repulsion induction it will have some
brushes and a commutator inside.

Mine is like that, and has four wires. Two wires are
tied together and become L1, and the other two tie together
and become L2 for that motor. It is presently wired for
120 volt service.

My understanding is that for 240 volt service, two wires
are tied together and insulated, and the other two become
respectively L1, and L2.

It would be interesting to see if it has brushes and a
commutator inside.

Jim

This is the motor I mentioned, it is in fact a wagner.



Jim

jim rozen said:

This is the motor I mentioned, it is in fact a wagner.

Jim

Click to expand...

OH, Close!
Mine has bigger bearing housings on the ends and there are three vent louvers all facing down and my second lube cup is mounted under and to the side of the bearing housing.

I attempted to google Wagner, but my on line search skills are not fine tuned.

What HP rating is your motor?

It looks like there are 4 wires there, PLEASE tell me your wires were numbered!

Archangel,

It sounds to me that they are telling you to tie wire #1 to one leg of you 240v source, wire #4 to the other leg of your 240v source. Tie wire #2 to #3. I agree. It be what I'd try first, even if it sounds asinine.

I know you mentioned that this is how it's already wired internally, so all you'd be doing is taking the wire tied to "neutral" and tie it to "the other 120v leg" making it a 240v supply. No "neutral" or ground is needed to make this motor turn. HOWEVER, I would tie a "safety" ground wire to motor chassis! A simple way to do this is to loosen a screw that holds the pecker head (the wiring box) on, slide a fork or ring terminal in (ring is preferred) and replace the screw. Wala, it's grounded.

Make ¢?

Doug S.

archangel said:

So, are you telling me that it has two 120V power wires, one 120V going to wire #1 and the other 120V goes to wire #4 and there is no neutral or ground?

Click to expand...

No, I am saying that you should call an electrician.

Pierce may be onto something!?

I've made such comments in the past, and have bit hard on my tongue many more time since.


Doug S.

Not numbered, sorry!



They were badly deteriorated when I got the motor, and I replaced them with
new wiring and teflon sleeving into the motor, this one is so old it has no "peckerhead"
but rather just four holes in the casting through which the wires exit the motor.

Maybe you might consider taking it to a motor specialty shop, to get them to
inspect it and suggest the correct wiring connections?

This one is small, it is 1/6 hp. Yep, a sixth.

Jim

Doug S. said:

Archangel,

It sounds to me that they are telling you to tie wire #1 to one leg of you 240v source, wire #4 to the other leg of your 240v source. Tie wire #2 to #3. I agree. It be what I'd try first, even if it sounds asinine.

I know you mentioned that this is how it's already wired internally, so all you'd be doing is taking the wire tied to "neutral" and tie it to "the other 120v leg" making it a 240v supply. No "neutral" or ground is needed to make this motor turn. HOWEVER, I would tie a "safety" ground wire to motor chassis! A simple way to do this is to loosen a screw that holds the pecker head (the wiring box) on, slide a fork or ring terminal in (ring is preferred) and replace the screw. Wala, it's grounded.

Make ¢?

Click to expand...

Well, with DC there is a positive, a negative, and the motor in between using the power transmitted through the wires continuity.

With AC it's the same thing only the power goes back and forth, and the 120V source is the positive and the neutral as the negative (where the green ground is also hooked up to in the breaker box, the same place as the neutral, but hooked up to the motor case to prevent a shock if the case were to accidentally become powered up with 120V), but there is still the positive and negative continuity issue and with the only 2 wires hooked to 120V positive, nothing will happen without the negative.

Pierce Butler said:

No, I am saying that you should call an electrician.

Click to expand...

I guess I might have to, but A free solution over the weekend would be better.

Power

Arch
Get the idea of "Phases" out of your head with 120/240 single phase power. There is only one phase and that is with a winding that is center tapped. It appears your motor is presently connected for 240 volt service with the two windings in series.

JRW

Well, searching on the net I found the, or one possible answer and it seems the two power wires and no neutral suggested by DOUG S.
So I guess I'll tie wire #1 to one leg of my 120v source, wire #4 to the other leg of your 120v source. Tie wire #2 and #3 together, supply power and hope nothing goes SIZZLE, POP, BOOM!

But I'm still concerned about 240V going in and no ground could be an accident waiting to happen if the power were to short to the case.

Now I need a 40 amp breaker and to drill a hole up into the garage wall from the basement to run my 240V extension cord through as the wire I have left is not long enough to reach and the wiring in the other house we moved out of is 3 times longer but weaves back and forth through the walls and floors from the breaker box to the garage and I doubt I could pull it out.

The on line Answer
Contrary to popular belief, electricity does not make a circular path. Actually on a 240 volt circuit there is no neutral, the additional wire if for a ground, and any motor should have a ground and be grounded for protection of the operator. The power generated at the power plant never leaves the plant. Electricity is created by vibrating atoms. The higher the voltage, the more atoms that are vibrating. Wire or conductors as the industry calls them are just that, they conduct electricity, unlike a pipe that carries water through it, electricity does not travel through a conductor, it just makes the atoms in the conductor vibrate when connected to a power source. On a 240 volt device, there are two power legs that buck against each other at the device creating either friction or force depending on the device. This is converted to force in a motor by energizing opposite windings and making a motor rotate. In a heating element, the two legs buck each other directly and created heating of the element. You are essentially creating a controlled short in a heating element and instead of blowing the fuse, it heats up. The same way with a bulb, 120 or 240 volt. The bulb element is a controlled short causing the element to burn and create light. Michael, I hope this helped some to understand. Let me know if I can ever assist further. J

archangel said:

But I'm still concerned about 240V going in and no ground could be an accident waiting to happen if the power were to short to the case.

Click to expand...

Go back and re-read my post.

Ground goes to the case of the motor.

Neutral is NOT ground even though it is close to it.