Newbie here with a ton of questions about a TM-1

This is my first post, although I have been a fan of the site for a while. This is my situation; A co-worker, and myself, are looking into purchasing a CNC mill to start running a small job after hours. Basically small quantity, small parts to start with. We are both familiar with manual machining, and conversational CNC machining centers and mills ( Hurco, Proto Trak). I have used Haas controls briefly on an SL-40 lathe, but never wrote any programs myself.Our limited G-code exposure was leading us towards an older Proto-Trak equipped knee mill, which seem like they can be found for around 10k. Seems pricey for an older, bare bones mill with limited capabilities. We have the opportunity to buy a 2005 Haas TM-1 with less that 300hrs. on it, for about 15k. The machine is nicer than anything at the shop where we both work! That is our situation, and these are my questions...

1. Is the 2005 TM-1 a good machine? Is the 15k pricetag high,low,fair?

2. Where does it lag, where does it excel? What features are especially useful? What upgrades would you recommend?

3. What type of learning curve will there be having minimal g-code experience, and could you recommend any Haas training, or g-code tutoring sites or manuals, if such things exist?

I am sure that I will have a trillion more questions in the future, and I'll try to find most of the answers on my own, but I sure do appreciate any advise anyone would be willing to lend. Thanks.

Another Newbie

I had a couple of Seiki XL 3 Axis CNC mills with Anilam 1100M controllers on them. That was my first step into the CAD/CAM and CNC world. I am 62 and retired and this was a challenge for me but I have come a long way in the short time I have been into the CNC world. The HAAS TM-1P was my next machine.

I just purchased a new HAAS TM-1P in January and I have really enjoyed it. The TM-1P has a 6K spindle speed instead of the 4K spindle speed on the TM-1. I read on one of the other forums that the TM-1 can be converted to 6K spindle speed. All of the HAAS's use the same control and I have found it very easy to use as a beginner. Of course, I have received help from others on this and other forums.

I paid about 40K for my machine which is an enclosed model. It also had the chip auger, Renishaw wireless probe system, 10 position tool changer, High Flow coolant pump, Techniks tooling package with pull studs. The Renishaw wireless probe was by far the best option I purchased with the machine. If you visit my website and check out the videos in my gallery you can see it in action. http://www.helicopterjohn.com/

I didn't order the rigid tapping but have since made that upgrade to my machine. I can't speak to the 2005 models but HAAS had a 200 hr trial period that you could use for that feature. You can also turn it on and off by changing a parameter setting so you don't waste the trial period hours.

My machine came with the new color LCD screen and the USB port. It is my understanding the older machines i.e. 2005 had a different monitor and only a 3.5 floppy drive. In my opinion the 3.5 floppy is not nearly as nice as the USB. You can get a USB thumb drive really cheap and it makes transferring programs to the HAAS very simple.

You can check prices on the new Machines on the HAAS website. Usually during HAAS days held in early November you can get a nice discount if you elect to purchase a new machine.

Another downside to the TM-1 is that it has no enclosure. If you use coolant it will be all over the shop floor. Some guys that own the TM-1 have built some nice enclosures which makes them acceptable for coolant operations.

I got a programmable coolant nozzle on mine (PCOOL) and I love it. You can set it to different nozzle positions for each tool that is placed in the spindle.

On the CAD/CAM side of things I elected to get a copy of ONECNC Mill AdvantageXR2. The current version is now XR3 and has many new features. The downside to that software is that the documentation is almost non existant. The good thing is that they have a private website of ONECNC users that has a bunch of really nice guys that are more than willing to help you with any questions you have. If you have a bad file you can post it on the site and they will fix it for you and tell you what you did incorrectly. It other words the customer support is top notch. They even fixed me up with an excellent post for my HAAS TM-1P Control. I don't do any really complex parts but it has been really nice and easy for me to use as a beginner.

Just a few thoughts from the beginners prespective.

John

southernmenace said:

This is my situation; A co-worker, and myself, are looking into purchasing a CNC mill to start running a small job after hours.

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Be very careful here, how long have you known this guy? How well do you know this guy? Things can go bad in a hurry. I have a business partner, I've known him for 16 years, room mates with him in college, did several major projects with him in college, roommates with him a few years ago again, worked with him at another company for 3 years etc... So I know this individual like the back of my hand and he is the only person I would have taken this leap with, and we still butt heads on occasion. Be very careful.

On the machine, start small, we started with a 1500 dollar CNC knee mill and an $1800 Acroloc (crappy VMC), and a 9X20 bench lathe. So you can get in for cheap and if things fall apart or simply go bad, you're not into it really deep. I guess 15k isn't that deep and can be sold off pretty quick since it is a Haas. Again, be careful.

On learning G-code, learn on your employers dime, getting paid to crash stuff is the best way to learn. Also be careful in that your employer doesn't find out or gives you his blessing, or things could get ugly at work. This is one of those honesty is the best policy things.

G- Code is not as scary as the "proto" people would have you think. I have found it faster and easier than "conversational" as you have less info to put in ie drilling holes with a move in only one axis at a time, you don't need to hit inc set ect. ect. And with the HAAS quick code (not visual quick code) the real quick code which I believe is standard on all controls makes learning a breeze. I ran proto's for years then we got a HAAS SL-20, then a TM-2 and wont look back. They are faster easier and just plain amazing. Plus if you get into any true 3 axis work ( x,y,z moving at the same time) on a proto you need to buy the "key" for $1000.00 to run it off a computer in DNC mode and you also have to pull your hair out to find the right baud rate to sent the program to the machine. To fast and you get dwell (control cant process fast enough) or jerky moves (controls waiting for info jumps on reciept of info) plus its still a trak cheap chinese chunk of boat anchor. Go HAAS
Terry

15K for a TM-1 is an ok price if its in very good to excellent shape, around here (Cal) they rarely come up used and when they do they go for that much or more.

However, try to push the guy down some, point out that a brand new TM-1 can be had for $22k.

Also keep in mind that you will need to reserve some money for tooling. I'd recommend www.maritool.com for your toolholders and he also sells carbide endmills for good prices. Talk to Frank there and let him know what you plan to do and he'll set you straight on the tooling and cutters you need to get started, and he definitely won't sell you things you don't need, he understands starting out fresh with tight $.

As a previous poster mentioned, don't be too intimidated by G code, its not that hard to learn. One way to do so is grab some G code examples off the web and study them. Also if you download the demo version Mach PC based software controller from www.artofcnc.com this will install a "virtual" CNC controller on your PC (it will run even though you won't have a real machine attached).

It will let you edit, run and step through G code while showing the toolpath to see how it works line by line. It also includes some conversational "wizards" that will generate G code for simple operations so you can run the wizard and then look at and step thru the G code it generates.

On the CAD/CAM side, for CAD there are two pretty powerful free programs you can get. Search for "Inventor LT", download it and install it and go thru both the built in tutorials and the online tutorials shown in a link on the download page (these are the best ones, the built in ones are too simple to really learn the program).

It took me about a week to learn how to use this program but its very powerful and really enhanced my design capabilities both for 2D and 3D. Its definitely the best thing I've ever gotten for free.

The other program is the SolidEdge 2D program, but to be honest Inventor LT blows it out of the water, so I'd go with Inventor unless you only plan to do 2.5D work.

On the CAM side, since funds are tight, you need to look at the low end programs. Search "SheetCAM", "VisualMill", "OneCNC" and "Dolphin" in these forums and you'll see lots of discussion about them. Form your own opinions about BobCAD by also seaching about it, but its not on my list of ones to try.

I use SheetCAM for 2.5D work (www.sheetcam.com) and VisualMill Basic (www.mecsoft.com) for 3D work, I'd definitely install and try the demo versions of both of these. The demo version of SheetCAM will squirt out some G code (I think up to 200 lines) which will help you to learn it. Depending on what you do you'll likely find that most of your jobs are 2.5D, so SheetCAM would be a good low cost way to get CAM capability for those jobs. Support on SheetCAM is excellent and he'll work with you to make sure your post works right for your machine.

Good luck-

Paul T.

I did the whole learn on the old machine thing. Yes I made money with it, but many times I spent more time screwing around trying to get things to work then I did machining. Old machine are a bitch to maintain as parts can be difficult to impossible to get. Need tech support, other then here you may have a problem.

I would buy the Haas, the machine is easy to learn as they are user friendly. Need parts or have a question, call your HFO or the factory in Ca and they have parts and tech support.

Down side to the Haas, not the most robust machines. I add extra passes here and there to get around that.

Thanks

I knew I could count on y'all for some good advice, and I cant thank you enough. Ive decided to go with the Haas!! It is in such good shape I know I would be regretting it immediately the second I had to "zip-tie" something together on an old knee mill. We do have one old G-code CNC where I work, and I have messed around with it a time or two. Im sure We'll get going on it with the help of the web and hopefully Haas themselves.
Id like for anyone else with any advice to please add to this post, and I also have a few more questions that you might be able to help with.
Ive been reading some about "trial periods" for features on the Haas mills. Is there a way to tell how much of the available "goodies" have been unlocked? Is there a pricelist for these features on the Haas website somewhere? I was also wondering if all this mill could be wired for single phase, as I have seen that some of the TM's can be. Thanks again guys, and please keep the advice coming.

SIM said:

I did the whole learn on the old machine thing. Yes I made money with it, but many times I spent more time screwing around trying to get things to work then I did machining.

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I suggested it because I already knew, I didn't need to learn. I actually learn something new everyday about this game, but I was comfortable in my skills as a machinist, and willingness to learn more, and I was comfortable about fixing old crap, having a lot of experience in fixing old crap, and new machines also, also the $1500 knee mill I mentioned came from the shop me and my partner worked in, so we both knew that sucker inside and out, he was also very familiar with Acrolocs (isn't that sad) so there was no fear there. I know its not for everybody, it just worked for me.


Southernmenace, starting your own business is probably one of the scariest things you will ever do in your life, its also one of the best things you will ever do in your life. The day you hand in your resignation at the "guaranteed paycheck" job, that will be the scariest and best thing you have ever done in your life.

If you are really going to make a go of it, expect to work your ass into the ground, and as somebody else said, don't forget about tooling and support equipment, I can guarantee that even though the boss has crap, it will be a while that a day goes by where you don't say "I wish I had **** piece of crap the boss has".

Good luck, you have a wild ride ahead of you, and its a lot of fun.

I purchased a new TM-1 in the summer of '02. The machine has about 3800 power on hours and 1500 hours making chips. I've learned to get around the lack of rigidity by taking extra passes, although it is often frustrating at times to take a 3" face mill to a piece of 316 stainless. Even with a .005 DOC I can see the effects in the work piece of the head moving.

I've upped the RPM to 6k and the rapids to 300. The machine runs great and for the exception for a few limit switches going bad, I've got less than a day down time on the machine over the last 6 years. The machine has the table guard, extended backsplash, telescoping bearing covers, 4th axis, and tool changer.

After 6 years, I got tired of making a mess, trying to work like a gentleman, and purchased a VM-2 at IMTS last month. I'm not getting rid of the TM-1, even it sits idle here and there, I know I can turn it on and I can go to work with it.

One suggestion I would give about learning G-code is buy the book CNC Programming Handbook by Peter Smid. When I talked our owner into buying the first cnc machine, a Haas VF1 I had never even turned on a machine, not to mention programmed one. Using this book and asking questions of friends who knew how to program things worked out great. As was said before in this thread G-code looks more intimidating than it really is. Five years later we now have 3 machines (VF1,VF2,SL10), looking at one more, and I purchased Featurecam for programming. Very simple to learn and reasonably priced.

If this bailout crap had waited another 3 months I would have had a new SL-30 on the floor.

Curtis

southernmenace said:

3. What type of learning curve will there be having minimal g-code experience, and could you recommend any Haas training, or g-code tutoring sites or manuals, if such things exist?

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http://cgi.ebay.com/CNC-G-Code-Video-Training-Fanuc-Haas-Fadal-Programng_W0QQitemZ160289611166QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item160289611166&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

G-code training CD, I've used some of this guys Mastercam training discs where I used to work, they really helped. For $90, I don't think you could call it a bad investment.

Bobw said:

I suggested it because I already knew, I didn't need to learn. I actually learn something new everyday about this game, but I was comfortable in my skills as a machinist, and willingness to learn more, and I was comfortable about fixing old crap, having a lot of experience in fixing old crap, and new machines also, also the $1500 knee mill I mentioned came from the shop me and my partner worked in, so we both knew that sucker inside and out, he was also very familiar with Acrolocs (isn't that sad) so there was no fear there. I know its not for everybody, it just worked for me.
.

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Bobw, if it was not for my first ole machine I would not have what I have now. It worked for me as well and will work for others. But now that I look back I know I would have been better off going with a newwer user friendly CNC. I lost countless hours programming simple tasks, I spent long days trying to get one tool to multitask, so I did not have to manually change the tools. Repairs where a joke, I called the factory once and they didn't even know anyone who even used to work on the machines. I used to try to run some jobs in that ole CNC before I got rid of it and I realized I could set up the job in my Haas, program it and run parts before I even got that old machines zeroed in.

I would second CNC programming by Peter Smid. I bought that when we got our SL-20 and that plus the quick code made life so easy
Terry

One more comment, keep in mind you'll be doing a ton of manual tool changes on this machine, so try a few and make sure you'll be able to stand it.

Actually how is the tool change done on this machine, is it a fully manual draw bar or is there some kind of pneumatic power assist for the draw bar?

On the single phase issue, I could be wrong but I thought all TM-1's can be run on single phase 220, check it for sure but that's my best memory on the issue.

Paul T.

The TM-1 has an optional 10 tool carousel tool changer. The draw bar is normally closed via. springs, pneumatic to open. The machine is either single or three phase.

hey buddy,
I guess you and I are on the same boat... I might be a bit ahead of you. beware of whom you trust these kinds of projects with, I have a sour storry to tell. I met this guy john when I was 18 at a local machine shop. He was a real character, always active, smart and easy to get along with. we went from washing patrts to manual machining, cnc machining, programming and lead man position within 2 years (note that I was 19 at the time). we lktaed about opening up a small shop someday... fast forward 3 years later and we found this guy with a Haas TM-1 in his garage, he let us work there and we began making custom parts for cars and motorcycles. things went bad when I baught my $1,600 laptop and as I watched my friend struggle with his old computer, I lend him money to buy one since we were going a long way and I needed his support when programming cnc. right after we baught the second laptop I didn't see him again. months later I found him and he said he'll pay me back. months and months after trying to get him to pay me everything ended in court and to this day he hasn't paid me a cent! What I am about to do next i won't mention. to little of his knowledge, I DID buy a TM-1 machine, the same one we used to make parts with. I have an engine lathe, inspection equipment and loads of tooling. I have a very small shop in my garage and it gives me great satisfaction that I made it all happen by myself. I like having fun at my shop and making some extra bucks on the side, here's a small sample of the things I make:

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260718

make sure who you are going on business with, the only people I can really trust are mom and dad. I'm a college student also working towards a engineering degree, I have an associate's degree and I spent a year learning catia V5. I'm glad I'm doing this on my own, but it's tough. It's a great experience buddy, go for it and try some luck. if it all fails, sell the machine. I've never seen a TM-1 go for that price. need any info, send me a PM. nice to know someone else is going the same road as me.
-Andres

We are considering getting a new TM-1 and of course the salesperson wants to add $8k worth of extras but we just want a cheap CNC for doing prototyping. Are the way covers really worth $1200 or are they something they just make a pile of cash on?

Dave

I grew up on Mori's and Matsuura's. Now, out on my own, I've got an Acroloc. I don't run it like a Matsuura, and I don't get mad at it for not being one. Maybe that's why in 4 years it never threw a tool at me. Paid $2K, came with 3 vises and 30 holders, runs and runs. Came out of a barn, through the wall, between the posts(post and beam barn), removed spindle drive assembly to do it, fairly simple. Fit through my 80" x 87" mill building door. How many 30" x 15" travel machines can do that? Please tell me, I'll take a look.

I'm replying to all the posts I've read pointing out the limitations of the Acroloc, there are benefits as well, my glass is half full.

ostrand11 said:

I'm replying to all the posts I've read pointing out the limitations of the Acroloc, there are benefits as well, my glass is half full.

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If there is ever a machine to be frustrated at, it is an Acroloc. However if there is a machine out there that goes DIRT cheap, its an Acroloc, and they almost always come with the tool holders, mine came with 33, plus all the collets, 2 different AF sizes plus all the collets for the floating tap holders, 4th axis and air operated tailstock, and a nice subplate. $1826. $70 in spindle bearings(pinion bearings for a Dana 70), a few new oil lines, and it put out a little over 100k in a little over a year.

If you can get one with a Fanuc (general numerics) control on it, its a great machine to get your feet wet with, there isn't much that can go wrong with them mechanical wise, except the tool holders, and the rest is all common Fanuc.

Sad as it is, mine was unplugged last week to make way for bigger and better things, sold it to the original owner of the machine 24 years ago for $1000, if he ever comes and gets it.