Haas machines tend to get a bad rep, and I'm not exactly sure why. Is it because they're 1/3rd the cost of a Matsuura, so one must assume it's 1/3rd the machine? If I had an order for 50,000 titanium impeller blades, that I was gonna be running for the next 3 years straight at full rapids and what not, then perhaps I would look at the Japanese products. But if you're a job shop, running 80-90% of our jobs as short runs, I can't see why you need to spend $400,000 on a VMC. Anyone care to enlighten me? I'd love to hear from someone who uses Haas and the big dollar machines.
I don't think they have a bad reputation at all. But they are what they are.
Here's my Haas story, maybe it will help explain it some:
I work for a large machine tool distribution and import company. I've always worked for the import side of the business. Anyway, twenty years or so ago I was engineering manager. We were at IMTS and the owner gathered, IIRC, four engineering managers from our different divisions and our VP of engineering together and asked us to go over to the Haas booth at some aappointed time and have a look see at this new VMC they had built.
The deal was Haas wanted us to sell the line in several states. Our owner was a bit skeptical and wanted us to evaluate the machine from an engineering standpoint. So we decsend on the booth and some sales type starts putting the hard sell on us. We start peppering the guy with question and he was pretty knowledgable, but soon had to grab another guy for help.
I'm the rookie in our group. Some of the gys I'm with are old time machine tool guys that worked for some big well known American builders in their past. We asked every imaginable question aboout the machine. What is the diameter and pitch of the ball screws? What kind of iron do you use? What class spindle bearings does it have? Power? Thrust? Weight? Dimensions of the base? We poked under the covers, looked into the electrical cabinets, paged through the control, and made lots of notes.
It was clear we were looking at a rather sub par machine built with an old technology homebrew control, motors (they were DC! good gawd!), and drives.
Before we left I asked our host, "How much?" I can't remeber the exact nuber but it was a little over $40,000.00. Huh? So I asked one of the AE managers in our group what Okuma's equivelent size machine retails for and he says "well it's not really the same thing," and tells me what it costs. It was over double the price at the time.
Unlike the other guys, I came out of a job shop background so my thoughts were a little different. We went off to have a little meeting before meeting with the owner. We compared notes and these guys were ripping the machine pretty good. The general consensus was it seemed like a bad idea. I kept bringing up the price. These guys didn't think it was all too important adn it was yet another problem. With the machine being so cheap; how can you afford to support it with the meager amount of money you make when you sell it? My idea was to use rookie service techs fresh out of school.
So we meet with the owner of our company and these guys start running through all the reasons why it's a bad idea to take the line. All while ripping the technical merits of the machine. Finally he turns to me and says, "you've been awfully quiet, do you agree with these guys?" I told him that I didn't. I felt at the price they were asking Haas was going to sell sh**loads of these things. I told him that if you apply the Pareto principle you'll see that this machine can do 80% of the work out there for not a lot of money.
The other guys objected some saying the machine was slow, weak, full of old technology, and probably unreliable. I countered with the technology might be old, but it's proven. Plus the target isn't the guy milling Inconel on an Okuma. It's the job shop with a dozen Bridgeports doing low quantity work. The machine costs 4-5x as much as a tricked out knee mill. Even in the hands of a complete moron they should be 10x more productive with the Haas over a knee mill.
We batted it around some more and in the end we took on the line. Right away they started selling them by the truckload.
I have two friends that run HFO's. It's still a tricky deal to make money selling Haas. Especially during downturns. The machines still lag comfortably behind in technology. I walked around a bit at IMTS this year looking at all the cool new stuff. I wandered over to Haas toward the end of my walk and the machines seemed incredibley slow compared to the high end stuff I was just gawking at least 5-10 years behind, I'd say.
So what? If you are doing low lot sizes of work that doesn't pay all that much then Haas is just the ticket. If it breaks, no other low cost builder has the service and parts network that they do, so the risk is small.
I also don't buy the "disposable" argument. When you get right down to it, Haas' machines are older technology built with mostly mid grade components. But it can all be repaired. So there's no reason the machine can't be kept running for twenty years. The real problem is that a twenty year old Haas is not competitive speed and power wise today. But if you're in your garage just starting out and have very low overhead, then maybe you can compete with an ancient one. For a little while anyway.
The analogy I like to make is that the times today technology wise are like the Middle Ages (Feudal Times). The Middle Ages lasted for 1,000 years. Why didn't the serfs rise up and rebel? Because the kings had the wealth to spend on expensive technologies like chain mail, body armour, horses, and swords. The serfs had sticks and long bows. Neither of which could pierce chain mail or armour. Then along came the crossbow and the dart. It changed the whole game.
Cheap PC's and cheap CNC's are the same deal. They put computing power and capability within reach of the ordinary guy's budget. 30 years ago only the biggest companies had comptuers and NC machines. Now almost anybody can have one.
That being said, the bigger guys are buying more expensive more capable machines and software. A HMC with pallets will smoke a Haas when measured productivity per labor unit. Same with high speed machining. It has changed the mold industry.
Eliminating labor is where it's at today. Otherwise you will find yourself losing work to the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, China) nations. They have plenty of cheap labor and their work force isn't nearly as uneducated as it used to be.
A Haas at best in most job shops has around a 40% spindle utilization rate. The rest of the time it's being set up, parts are being swapped out, the operator wasn't there when the cycle was done, etc. And when it is running it is running slower than a better machine.
There is way too much direct labor in those machines for most places to stay competitive forever. Like everything else, the higher end multi function lathes, 5-axis mills, and palletized machining centers are coming down in price.
And so it goes...
Did Haas want it back? That's a piece of history. I don't know that I could have sold that thing. I'd have kept it around just to prove programs or train or whatever.
