Haas for machining Titanium?

Hello all,

Long time lurker first time poster.

I am looking into manufacturing some pieces out of some grade 5 titanium.
It will be 5in round billet 1.75in thick. Turned into a spool, I will be removing about 90% of the material.

Secondary operations on a mill will consist of milling holes for weight reduction, surfacing, cutting M4 threads and engraving. (mainly light cutting, bulk of the machining is done on the lathe.)

Machine budget is going to be around $100,000 for the intial startup.

I have looked at the Haas Super Minimill and the SL10 lathe.

I think size wise they are the correct working envelopes, I really don't want large machines.

I am not sure if they are going to be enough machine to cut titanium sufficiently though.



Does anybody have any input? I would greatly appreciate it. I want input form end users not salesmen.


Thank you.

Adam

I am not too familiar with titanium so maybe the SL10 can handle it, but are you aware this is a non-gearbox machine? Torque is limited at all speeds and when you have to go slower for larger diameters the SL10 can poop out. I have found simply machining larger diameter hot rolled or cold rolled steel it is not possible to run the speeds and feeds that give nice big blue chips and remove material very fast.

I do love Haas, and actually own an SL10 and MiniMill, so can be quite objective here.
The MiniMill will be able to nibble away at Ti if you keep your speeds and feeds in check. By no way is it the best or even middle of the road machine for this, but can do it.
The SL10 OTOH will be WAYYYYYyyyyyyy underpowered.
And I am not kiddin'!!!
You will be able to turn it by using the tool overload monitor set to "reduce feed" mode, but that will kill your tool life to a fraction of what you should have.
My vote, look for something beefier. A gearbox is not necessary for 5", but a 30Hp direct drive with low max RPM is a good indicator of a high torque machine, which is what you really want here.

OK so I need to rethink the lathe.


On the mill side I will really only be using Endmills smaller than .250in

I was also considering doing a retrofit on an older maho machine. I have run an MH1600 and it was a stud, the 432 left alot to be desired though. BUT that is totally at the other end of the whole size range. massive machine.


Its a good thing I am still saving towards this budget and I am not buying for a while so I have time to decide and make the right decision.

The SuperMiniMill which Mitanium mentions is night-and-day different to a MiniMill; much more torque all the way through the speed range.

Oh, I didn't even catch that!!!
You do NOT NEED THE SUPER MINI!!!
You will not ustilize it's extra speed, not in TI anyway, so why spend the extra 10K???

And for the record, the SuperMiniMill has roughly 1/2 of the spindle torque than the MiniMill.
Super Mini - 17 ft-lb @ 4600rpm
Mini - 33 ft-lb @ 1200 rpm

He'll likely be near the 1200 or under range, the SuperMini would be a bad choice indeed.

SeymourDumore said:

Oh, I didn't even catch that!!!
You do NOT NEED THE SUPER MINI!!!
You will not ustilize it's extra speed, not in TI anyway, so why spend the extra 10K???

And for the record, the SuperMiniMill has roughly 1/2 of the spindle torque than the MiniMill.
Super Mini - 17 ft-lb @ 4600rpm
Mini - 33 ft-lb @ 1200 rpm

He'll likely be near the 1200 or under range, the SuperMini would be a bad choice indeed.

Click to expand...

nice observation thank you.

Depending on how many of these parts you forsee making, you might be better off getting a used lathe with live tooling and a sub spindle and cut the mill out of the picture entirely.

SeymourDumore said:

...Super Mini - 17 ft-lb @ 4600rpm
Mini - 33 ft-lb @ 1200 rpm

Click to expand...

Sorry about that; I work near the other end where the Super is better.

I was just looking at the robodrill eco its a 30 taper with 39ft.lbs of torque.


hmm...looks like a cool little machine.

http://www.methodsmachine.com/_assets/machines/934598ee-e734-4c72-8609-2d04f35739df.pdf

What do you think of that?

Am I looking at the completely wrong type of machine for this type of work?

Vf1

You can just get a VF1 and a rotary table on the 4th access, just mill it, don't know what you're making but it sounds like fun. Mills are easier to use than cnc lathes with live tooling. But a lathe would be faster for material removal.

I use my Mini for Ti 5 and 304 ss almost exclusively. I use a 1/2" 4flCEM for roughing at the speeds and feeds that come out of the machines calculator and have not had any problems. Smallest endmill I use is 3/64".

Tim in D

My Mini also sees a steady diet of 303, 304, 316, 15/5, 17/4, 6AL4V
Rarely sees alum.
it's a different way of machining.
Small faster cuts.
I machine Ti at about 140sfm and it works just fine.
Runs way faster and quieter on the Sharp, but I'd have expected that.
Got rid of my SL10 for being an unreliable, slow, underpowered machine.

If I were running much titanium and stainless, I'd definitely go for a machine with more beef and less cheese. Slower speeds and higher feeds (for ti and stainless) could surely benefit from a heavier machine (box ways and such). However, if all the heavy work will be done on the lathe, a Mini would probably get the job done just fine. Then again, it would only limit you if you found yourself doing different jobs in the future.

I have a Haas TM1 in my shop, and I use it to cut 718 inconel. I just never used anything larger than a 3/8 endmill. It's much less expensive to replace an endmill than it is to replace a spindle.

I have a Haas TM1 and MiniMill, I've cut a lot of 304, 316, 316L, O1, D2, S7, A2, 4140, 4140 HT, the machines have always done a great job. You can't run them like a bigger, more powerful machine, but run them right and they do the job. I've found they run better with a shallower doc and faster feed.

It would be nice to hear from someone that has ran some on the new integral 5 axis machines.

Pretty large machines - but only avialable in 40 taper. ???


-----------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

I just purchased a new VF2ss and it sat broken for 5 weeks. I wont purchase another Haas if mazak or mori make the same thing for just a little more..I tried cutting some 1018 on it the other day and it wasn't great. i had to cut very slow to keep it from wanting to walk across the floor. Buying a Haas to run primary TI is like buying a small Toyota pickup to pull your 30' camper. It will work, but....

For 100k you can get a heck of a new used machine. They are everywhere...Im looking at a 07 horizontal that's 1/2 price...If the deal goes thru I will have a used Mori duravertical 5100 for sale. 850 spindle hours and cut 99.9% 7075al on it $85k loaded on your truck... Its perfect and priced cheaper than a new Haas would be..

How much would someone charge to make you some pucks on their lathe, then you can finish them on a mill? You might be surprised at how cheap a bar fed machine will run, especially if you are going to finish machine them and hold the tolerances you need to with the mill.

Seekins

I'm just curious. What stopped you from giving an ultimatum to the HFO after the 2nd day of sitting?

I mean I like Haas just fine, but if I was down and service wasn't available for no more than 24 hours, I'd be freakin' LIVID!!!
In your case of a new machine they better be bringing the riggers and in a hurry too before the first rainstorm hits.


Interesting about your 1018 troubles tough. I have no experience at all ( not even a show close-up) of the SS machines, but my standard VF4 with gearbox cuts Inco and TI absolutely flawless.
Not sure about a Mini primarily for TI, but a gearbox machine VF1 and up would work without issues for tools up-to 1" or so.
If you need more mat removal with larger inserted cutters, I'd look at a 50 taper Haas.
With TI, I think the tooling is more of a limiting factor than the machine ( once again, I'm not talking about the Mini )

My machine just vibrates and rattles so much i dont think it would last long cutting mild steel. Same tools, and cutting parameters as i do on the duravertical and its not even a close comparison. I cant even hear myself think...It does cut aluminum great at 12krpm, but the Haas spindle is so loud i cant even hear the mori cutting. If buying a new machine, the Mori dura is only 15-20k more than a Haas of the same size and options and i feel for that price difference you get way more for your money. Your VF4 is much heavier than this vf2 and i think it would be a quick death on a mini mill unless you cut allot slower than you expect to. I had one of those too and a 1/2" em is all it wanted unless you went real slow and that was in aluminum. Great for a low production cut some parts mill, but your ROI is much much lower.

My VF2 left a crappy surface finish and i played with it for a couple days before calling rueling out all tooling and setup problems first. they replaced the spindle motor and spindle. that got some vibration out of the part. then they played with parameters until it left a good surface finish. I wanted to get pissy real quick, believe me but this was the only machine i could get on my floor to meet my delivery scheduale. I learned a long time ago that ultimatums don't always work and can backfire. I needed to make parts and needed this machine fixed and new being a nice guy would help that situation, so i held my speech until my material order showed up. Then i gave them 2 days or bring a replacement. that got a Haas guy on the airplane and here the next day where he changed 1 parameter that they wouldnt let machine tool services change (service techs for Haas here). He played with it until i said the surface finish was acceptable. Its still not great and they think its the best ever....last Haas for me.......This one will be for sale after i get a horizontal running. I will use the Haas money for a pallet pool..