Opinions of 2009 Haas VF-1, VF-2??

Nick H · Jun 4, 2009

Our shop is looking at a 2009 VF-1 or VF-2, probably going to get the upgraded tool changer, TSC, tool probe, 4th axes prewire. What do you guys think of the current Haas VMC's, any issues with them? This will be a lightly used machine used for second op on screw machine parts mostly with a manual add on pallet system to run semi high numbers of parts. 500-10,000 part job orders mostly in 12L14 and aluminum stock.

Hdpg · Jun 4, 2009

You are probably going to get a lot of conflicting opinions on this one.

I have three VF2s and other Haas machines running parts in 12L14 and aluminum.

In my experience reliability is very good; two of the VF2s have not needed any service for something like three years each and the other has needed one fix in more than six years.

They are not heavy hoggers so if you want to remove lots of material really fast maybe not the best choice. For example a 3/4" two flute running 0.4" deep full width in 6061 at 11,000rpm and 110 ipm puts the spindle load up near 120%, but they can do this several hours a day.

They are not the most rigid machine and when you are doing facing at more than about 80ipm you can see witness marks where the whole machine flexes and the tool bounces when the table changes direction. This is more accentuated on the SS and YT machines so unless you really need the extra speed or travel I think the standard configuration is best.

Overall I think that they give good value for money.

Matt@RFR · Jun 4, 2009

I have an '07 VF-2ss, and when I was getting quotes for a similarly optioned VF-2, it was only like $8000 more to go with the SS with the 'D' option kit (nearly every option you could ever want, plus the 4th). I don't get the witness marks that Geof mentioned, although I could have gotten lucky with my machine because a few people have had that problem.

Also, I've done some roughing with a 2" face mill, .125" deep, 1.75" step over, 10,000rpm and 500ipm with a spindle load of 130%. Online calculators put that cut at something like 38 horsepower, so my spindle is VERY close to the rated 30hp. Again, maybe I got lucky, or maybe these higher hp spindles are that much better than the 20hp ones. Who knows.

The only thing I don't like about my machine is the size. If you have the room and money, I would recommend a VF-3 or bigger. On a VF-2, three vices and the tool setter is a TIGHT fit. In my case, the cieling in my shop (garage) isn't tall enough for a bigger machine. I had to sheetrock in a space for the spindle and wiring to fit between joists as it is.

Joe788 · Jun 4, 2009

Matt@RFR said:
I have an '07 VF-2ss, and when I was getting quotes for a similarly optioned VF-2, it was only like $8000 more to go with the SS with the 'D' option kit (nearly every option you could ever want, plus the 4th). I don't get the witness marks that Geof mentioned, although I could have gotten lucky with my machine because a few people have had that problem.

Also, I've done some roughing with a 2" face mill, .125" deep, 1.75" step over, 10,000rpm and 500ipm with a spindle load of 130%. Online calculators put that cut at something like 38 horsepower, so my spindle is VERY close to the rated 30hp. Again, maybe I got lucky, or maybe these higher hp spindles are that much better than the 20hp ones. Who knows.

The only thing I don't like about my machine is the size. If you have the room and money, I would recommend a VF-3 or bigger. On a VF-2, three vices and the tool setter is a TIGHT fit. In my case, the cieling in my shop (garage) isn't tall enough for a bigger machine. I had to sheetrock in a space for the spindle and wiring to fit between joists as it is.

Matt, your .125x1.75x500ipm cut is 109 cubic inches per minute, or about 18-21hp depending on the cutter.

david n · Jun 4, 2009

If it's betweent a VF1 and a VF2, go for the 2. Same footprint, but more tavel. You'll be kickin yourself if you don't.

lee182 · Jun 4, 2009

I agree, we have a 2008 vf2 and are very impressed with the machine, we machine mostly 316 stainless steel and H30 Alloy, High Speed Machining and the extra memory options are worth looking at, we have a 318 Titanium job coming up soon so will be interesting to see how the machine copes with this, i think it will do the job fine with the right programing strategies and tooling, will let you know how we get on,

VF2 would be the right choice out of the two machines

cheers Lee :cheers:

Matt@RFR · Jun 4, 2009

Joe788 said:
Matt, your .125x1.75x500ipm cut is 109 cubic inches per minute, or about 18-21hp depending on the cutter.

Thanks Joe. I knew it was too good to be true.

I'm still happy with the machine.

StreetSpeed · Jun 5, 2009

I would imagine if you're doing thousands of palletized screw machine parts, you're gonna want an SS so you get the fast(er) rapids. I don't intend to buy another Haas (I have 4) but if I did it would certainly be an SS model...

g-coder05 · Jun 6, 2009

I agree with the SS. we have 3 now with pallet changers. if you dont need the 40 tool changer go for the 24 pot. i have found that the rotation of the larger drum cant keep up with the machine. many times the tool sits waiting for the next tool for several seconds. the hi speed tool changer is realy nice along with the hi rapids "wich can be played with to get 1650ipm out of".

Matt@RFR · Jun 6, 2009

g-coder05 said:
"wich can be played with to get 1650ipm out of".

Do tell!!!

g-coder05 · Jun 7, 2009

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-18650.html

This disscusion talks about the spindle and rapids on the tm-1, look towards the end and the pars for X,Y,Z are given. I took these and started slowely bumping them up and canging the accel/decel till i could get the max out of them without a servo error alarm. be sure to write your numbers down for each change then once you hit the max then just back it off a little. I have my maxes written down at work in my haas blue book. when I get in ill try to post them.

Matt@RFR · Jun 7, 2009

Interesting. I never paid attention to those threads (of which there are many) because I figured they only applied to the TM machines.

On a similar line of thought, I messed around with my spindle decel parameters to where, now, from 12,000 rpm to zero roughly equals the time it takes Z to rapid up for a tool change. I easily cut 2 seconds off my tool change times, and the load meter is still only around 100% during decel, whereas during accel, it hits 200%, so I figure it must be safe.

Hdpg · Jun 7, 2009

Matt@RFR said:
.....On a similar line of thought, I messed around with my spindle decel parameters to where, now, from 12,000 rpm to zero roughly equals the time it takes Z to rapid up for a tool change. I easily cut 2 seconds off my tool change times,...

What machine? On all my Haas machines when you call a tool change with the spindle down near the work it is stopped well before the Z axis has reached the tool change position.

Did you increase or decrease the decel parameter?

Matt@RFR · Jun 7, 2009

It's an '07 VF-2ss. Parameter 186 was 185000, it's now 300000. I know you're going to ask, so...the way I call tool changes is simply M6 Txx. No M5, no M9, No G53 Z0..

What is your take on increasing the rapids on an SS machine Geof?

Hdpg · Jun 7, 2009

I see, yes an SS is going to get to Z zero in about half the time it takes my VF2s so speeding up the stopping is logical.

I would like to see how well the machine does fast facing after increasing the rapids. I believe the standard SS leaves witness marks from the machine flexing during changes in table direction and would expect this could be more pronounced. Of course that would depend on the acceleration parameters.

1650 ipm is awful fast; I find 1000 makes me wake up when I haven't been running a machine for a while and when I go from the TL2 doing all of 400 ipm the difference is dramatic. I would also worry about pulling an oopsie and burying the spindle in a vise at that speed.

Steve Seebold · Jun 7, 2009

For the little difference in price, you'll soon regret not buying the larger machine, but as someone said in an earlier post, if you have the money and the space, opt for the VF3.

Does anyone know what VF1 stands for?

g-coder05 · Jun 7, 2009

Does anyone know what VF1 stands for?

Hmmmm, Very First 1?

Matt@RFR · Jun 7, 2009

Hdpg said:
I see, yes an SS is going to get to Z zero in about half the time it takes my VF2s so speeding up the stopping is logical.

I would like to see how well the machine does fast facing after increasing the rapids. I believe the standard SS leaves witness marks from the machine flexing during changes in table direction and would expect this could be more pronounced. Of course that would depend on the acceleration parameters.

1650 ipm is awful fast; I find 1000 makes me wake up when I haven't been running a machine for a while and when I go from the TL2 doing all of 400 ipm the difference is dramatic. I would also worry about pulling an oopsie and burying the spindle in a vise at that speed.

I've found something that helps those facing marks quite a bit for me: Instead of leaving .010" or whatever on that face to clean up, I'll leave .050" on up to .250" to face off depending on the part and the cutter. That, and making every attempt to use the smallest tool possible in corners, has done wonders for my facing quality with endmills. Also, messing around with G187 can change things as well with both P and E variables, but I've had such little work I haven't had a chance to really get into that. I do invoke G187 Px Ex.xxx (I'm not in the shop right now) when roughing a 3D part at 500ipm and above because it makes the axes accelerate faster (from my experimentation, anyway).

I've gotten used to the 1400ipm rapids and don't think 1650 would be THAT big a difference. What really interested me is the acceleration rates in rapid mode. With the SS machines (atleast mine), when making short rapid moves, it just kind of looks lazy. Especially when compared to some videos you see with high end machines. Now I'm in no way expecting my hunk to perform like a 1/4 million dollar mill, but getting as close as I can would be great. (without hurting anything!)

Matt@RFR · Jun 16, 2009

g-coder05 said:
I have my maxes written down at work in my haas blue book. when I get in ill try to post them.

I don't mean to be a pest, but...

Also, with your accel and deccel values bumped up, how much difference have you really seen in rapid times? Is it considerable?

Opinions of 2009 Haas VF-1, VF-2??

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