Is a side mount tool changer worth 9K?

map32968 · Sep 26, 2010

Title says it all I am planning on buying a new VF2

VF-2 base price 47,995.00

10,000-rpm Spindle, 40 Taper, 20 hp 3,995.00

Chip Auger 2,295.00

High-Speed Machining 2,295.00

Intuitive Probing, Renishaw 4,995.00

24+1 Side-Mount Tool Changer 8,895.00

I have run HAAS mills with the side mount but not the umbrella
though I have run MAZAKS with umbrella magazines they are slower but I can live with that.

What about reliability and maintenance?

money is tight and this will be my first CNC mill and I am trying to stretch my budget as much as I can

I will be doing R&D work mostly on this mill

thanks

D. Rey · Sep 27, 2010

The side mount is sexy no doubt.

Significantly faster too.

More clearance if you are running a rotary or trunnion.

Couple of more tools I think isn't it 24+1?

Now is that worth 9k?

9k is half way to a nice used VF-1, or new software, load of tooling....hard for me to justify, one can do a lot with 9k.

david n · Sep 29, 2010

Buy the SMTC. You'll thank yourself down the road. The extra tools capacity is a huge plus(I run jobs with 20 plus tools quite often). As mentioned, the extra clearance is plus #2. Speed is plus #3( the SMTC can stage the next tool in the program). But the #1 reason for the SMTC is it keeps you tools outside of the machine. This may not seem like a big deal, but the tool holder tapers stay clean and this leads to a clean spindle taper which leads to less wear and tear. I have VF2 with the SMTC and a Super Mini Mill with the umbrella. Let me tell you, after owning each, I will NEVER EVER buy another VMC with an umbralla tool changer. EVER!

JP Machining · Sep 29, 2010

I love my SMTC, way better than the umbrella for reasons listed above. Also if you can afford it, get the probing package. It's cheap from Haas and it is the single best time saver you can get on the machine, no more dial indicators or edge finders. The tools probe alone is worth what they charge in time saved as I can load all the tools needed and tell the machine which ones to measure and it will go through each one by itself (for simple length only type measurements).

Ox · Sep 29, 2010

I have two umberellas. (Not HAAS, but...)

Those same two machines primarily run with a 4th.

Tool clearance is :eek:

sometimes.

------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

giordanoda · Sep 29, 2010

go with umbrella!!

Man
In my experience with Haas they have not fully got the tool magazine process down
I've been down many times because of the side mount tool changer If you buy a haas, the umbrella is better. Do no buy into the super fast tool changer sales pitch

jbmfg · Sep 29, 2010

Resale

When it comes time to sell this machine, an umbrella style will eliminate a large group of people. My .02.

SIM · Sep 29, 2010

I have several Haas VMC's all with Umbrella Tool changes. Never had or used a side mount, so I cannot say which is better.

However, very very rare do I ever have issues with tool clearances...at least not ones easily solved.

The changes all work with very little problems, no problems with chips in the spindle.

Then again I clean the little pocket door slides at least twice a year and give them a nice grease lube make sure they work nicely. I also do not nor do I let my guys blast air haphazardly in the machine...for me I see this as a big way to have a problem with chips getting into places they should not be getting.

Need more tools...well thats a different issue. 95% of the time I fill less then half of it.

Need more speed...the speed of the Umbrella is what it is and it works for me.

I'd buy more tooling, vises and holders or a Rotary with the 9G's....but that just me.

Good Luck!!

SND · Sep 29, 2010

Well, I have to throw this in there.

Look at the new Doosan DNM400, 30x16, 15hp/cont spindle instead of 7.5 on the Haas. 30 tool changer, with big-plus spindle, rigid tapping standard, bunch of other things I can't think of, which you should all double check with them, and although I didn't check the price for a mildly similarly equipped haas, ,my guess is it doesn't cost any more. Oh and its a few thousand pounds heavier.

cdn farmer · Sep 30, 2010

If your doing mostly prototype work or short runs where time is not as much of an issue I would go with the carousel and spend the extra money elsewhere,,
But if you have any sort of production work or planning on going down that road in the future get the side mount changer,,The time savings can easily justify spending the extra money depending on what your doing,,

jbmfg · Sep 30, 2010

Doosan

I will verify what SND said above. I will be getting 2 new DNM 500 machines next week and they were much cheaper than a comparable Haas. Also Doosan has a great deal on the DNM 400 right now. 1K tooling credit, large savings on a conveyor, and like 3% financing. The details are a little hazy, but contact them. I currently own 2 DMV 4020 machines and love them. The other thing about the Doosan is they are a Fanuc machine and can really be serviced by anybody familiar with Fanuc while Haas has alot of Haas specific items. I do not want this to be a bash Haas post, but the numbers do not lie.

jbmfg · Sep 30, 2010

More info

Here is some comparison numbers between the DNM 400 and VF-3.
Weight Doosan 12,125, Haas 7,300 (VF-3 weight 12,000).
Coolant tank Doosan 80 gallons, Haas 50 gallons.
Rapids Doosan 1414, Haas 1000
Tools changer Doosan 30 station standard, Haas 24 station optional.

Plus the Doosan comes with the MPG and internal screw conveyor standard.

ARB · Sep 30, 2010

I for one would do my best not to buy another umbrella tool changer.

I hate getting chips on my tool holders. The SMTC on our 2001 VF7 has been very reliable.

I would get the biggest tool changer I could within reason. There is not substitute for having tools in the machine ready to go and not having to make up tooling as you go from job to job.

Granted if you run the same 4 tools all the time then it is a mute point but if your like me and run ones and twos a lot then having a diverse tool offering in the machine is key.

wolf44 · Oct 9, 2010

If you use heavy tools or very long tools the side mount ain't the way to go.
Owner of 4 umbrella machines.

SteveinAZ · Oct 9, 2010

I'd too vote for the SMTC...you'll thank all of those pushing you this way after you have gouged your noggin a few times looking in the machine. Also, the few extra tools are worth it, and I have run into clearance problems with long tools and the pony ride style. We have a job that is run on the Matsuura with a SMTC, just NO way it would even run on an umbrella machine. I also agree with ARB...having the tool changer set up is a huge advantage, as is just having a lot of pockets...we have a repeating job about every 4-5 weeks that needs 37 tools - can't have enough pockets. We just ordered a new machine, had to stop at 120 tools, just had to stop at some point...although I would have liked to have ordered it with a 330 tool hive, didn't even ask how much that was..........

Steve

Hele63 · Oct 14, 2010

D. Rey said:
The side mount is sexy no doubt.

Significantly faster too.

More clearance if you are running a rotary or trunnion.

Couple of more tools I think isn't it 24+1?

Now is that worth 9k?

9k is half way to a nice used VF-1, or new software, load of tooling....hard for me to justify, one can do a lot with 9k.

They are faster but not more clearance, dont forget the tool goes down when tool changing unlike with and umbrella the tool stays and head goes up, for i do large parts and side mount would never work, so think of what you need

Edster · Oct 15, 2010

They are actually the same clearance for the tool in the spindle for umbrella vs sidearm.

The head goes up approx 4 inches to clear the tools in the umbrella type, but the umbrella machines don't have an additional 4 inches of z travel. The umbrella is mounted 4 inches below the max +z travel. The problem is with all the other tools in the umbrella as it swings out and rotates.

The side arm changes tools at max +z travel but the arm drops the tool down approx 4" when it swings it around. so you only have to watch two tools not the whole umbrella.

Matt@RFR · Oct 15, 2010

And you can rapid to your extreme X- travel before a tool change to clear tall work of the tools about to be changed.

Personally, I would never have anything but a SMTC. If not for the speed, for the cleanliness. I've only found one chip on a toolholder taper, and I'm convinced that was from me getting a little crazy with the air gun cleaning the machine, not from normal operation.

Don't forget about speed of setup either. If I have a bunch of tools loaded and need to throw in another one, it absolutely doesn't matter which pocket I put it in. Being able to prestage tools within the program, you can go from T1 to T10 just as fast as going from T1 to T2.

Ox · Oct 15, 2010

Like others - I agree that you tool change clearance is no more one way or the other. The issue is tool clearance while your IN CYCLE. If you have a part or fixture that sits a foot off the table floor, you are getting into a not-so-safe zone.

-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

BGL · Oct 15, 2010

Side mount tool changer

Having run a Matsuura with a side tool changer and also Haas umbrella style I have to agree that I prefer the side mount style for speed, tool set up and mostly cleanliness. The umbrella is a constant hassle to keep clean, other then dust the side mount was never a problem.

Is a side mount tool changer worth 9K?

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