Did Haas miss the boat with the new ST lathes?

david n · Dec 5, 2010

So I'm shopping for a new turning center. Pricing from mid level to high end machines. Almost every machine tool mfgr now offers an 8" chuck machine with at least a 2.5" through hole standard. But not Haas....oops. Not saying I'd run out and buy a new ST lathe if it did, but I'd at least have the local HFO quote one out. I'm really leaning toward a Doosan Lynx 220LC(2.625" bore) or for a few more bucks, a Mazak QTS200(2.5" bore). Both are 8" chuck machines.

SeymourDumore · Dec 5, 2010

David, It looks that way....
There used to be a big bore option on the SL lathes, which typically meant that you've got the headstock/motor combo from the next size up machine, but that does not seem to be an option now on the ST-s.

I'll get up close and personal with an ST20 next week as a customer of mine just bought one. Will check out the sounds and the iron a little better than in the showroom, but you're right about the 2" bore being on the cheesy side.

SeymourDumore · Dec 5, 2010

ON second look, there is a Bigbore option to get up-to 2.5", but that would mean that it's not the spindle from the ST30, which is a 3" standard.

SND · Dec 5, 2010

Mazak Smart 200 is a 52mm(2") standard bar capacity, 2.56" is a 4-5K option after credit for the one they remove/keep.

david n · Dec 5, 2010

Yeah and the big bore option is another $7900 bucks too. Ouch!

SND
The Mazak sales guy really didn't explain it that way to me. I'll have to grill him for more info. I just assumed it was now a 2.5" machine. Here are the QTN machines and they are 2.5 standard for an 8" machine: Mazak Product Even if it is an option with a credit, they offer it much cheaper(the option, not the over all machine) and it gets you into a whole different class of machine.

SND · Dec 5, 2010

I just pulled out the 2005 mazak catalog thing I had from when we shopped where I used to work, the QT Nexus 200 list 2.5" spindle capability *1, little *1 at the bottom also says " depends on chuck specifications" I bet is its also a 52mm standard.
Funny bit is when you start reading the catalog for the new smart 200-250 it says: The large spindle bores of 3" and 3.58" allow large diameter bar material to be machined" but they are talking spindle hole without draw tube or chuck on... what good is that? ugh.

I think you pretty much need to see it in person and bring a measuring tape, almost every spec I've read the last year on a few brands/models all had at least 1 thing that was off.

Btw, if you consider the mazak, and they really do seem to offer a fairly nice machine for the price mostly if the doosan 30th special is over, ask about the coolant pump, looks like its only got a 180watts. I was told I needed to put a real pump as an option( best deal appeared to be the 1100watts at a dollar a watt pretty much).

jlegge · Dec 6, 2010

Mori Seki makes the best lathe on the market - that is if you are looking for something that can full HP cuts day after day and hold tolerance.

cnctoolcat · Dec 6, 2010

The new Haas ST lathes have the spindle motor mounted ABOVE the spindle housing! Craziest thing I have ever seen on a cnc lathe.

Makes you wonder what 'ol Gene was thinking...

SND · Dec 6, 2010

When I saw the video of the ST-30 without the sheet metal I definitely thought it was weird to have the motor up there. Thought I must have heard the guy wrong at first.
Rails look kinda flimsy too when comparing to the pictures of the mazak smart.

SeymourDumore · Dec 6, 2010

Actually, I thought that just might not be that bad of an idea.
First off, it reduces the length of the belts by a considerable amount.
Second, the forces are not pulling on the entire headstock, rather only the bearings.
Third, it adds a few hundred pounds of mass to the headstock.
I'm looking at it as an integrated spindle/motor on the cheap which just might prove to be successful.

Of course, this is only from my braindead thinking and have not ( yet) seen it actually cutting anything serious.

jlegge · Dec 7, 2010

HAAS is a mill builder, and they have always approached their lathes like they are mills. If you look at a Hardinge, Mori, even an old Monarch Predator, you see the geom. of the machine is much different. These machine were designed for performace first, and the cost to build. HAAS design has been to make the less expensive machine to build.

The motor on the head is an example of this. From a build point of view it makes sense, but having the motor here will introduce more vibration to the spindle, where top end builders try to isolate the spindle as much as possible. Another issue I always had with HAAS design is how the headstock and the tailstock were mounted on long lever arms, instead of being short coupled to the bed like high end builders. With this design, a lot of stiffness is lost, and it would make it difficult to hog on these lathes.

The Monarch Predator 10 had a 2.5 bar capacity back in the mid 90's, so this is nothing new, and agian the only reason HAAS did not make this standard would be cost.

Just my two cents worth.

david n · Dec 7, 2010

Also, it would have been nice to see them move away from the wedge and build a true slant bed machine; head stock, turret/carraige, and tailstock all on one plane. That alone could have improved accuracy and rigidity.

jlegge · Dec 7, 2010

david n said:
Also, it would have been nice to see them move away from the wedge and build a true slant bed machine; head stock, turret/carraige, and tailstock all on one plane. That alone could have improved accuracy and rigidity.

This is the design high end builders use with all compontents close coupled to the bed. Unfortunently, selling price trumps design quality. HAAS sells a heck of a lot more lathes than anyone else in this country. Which means their machines are "good enough" for most folks. It kind of like how South Bend use to out sell every other lathe manufacturer. Everyone would like to have a Monarch, W&S, American, but could only afford a S.B.

JohnW · Dec 7, 2010

I don't know if Haas missed the boat with the ST lathe, but I do think Cybercnc missed the boat with this ST thread. Sure, "This is the age of social networking" as Cybercnc said, but if the idea is to project a positive social networking image then I'm afraid Cybercnc missed the boat on that one.

Based on reading the Cybercnc posts, if Haas close down and all the other machine tool builders from the free world close down, leaving Cybercnc as the sole machine builder in the US, I will change careers and become a blacksmith before buying a Cybercnc machine.

Imaging people searching online for cybercnc and this thread pops up as one of the top search results. . . . . ouch. . .

Regarding the ST lathe, I'm just newbie Haas user and I read the same literature and thought okay, better heat dissipation, but I never thought about the vibration from the motor as jlegge pointed out. Is vibration from the motor an issue on the ST?

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