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VF-5 VMC (needs work) / too much machine for what we need?

motion guru

Diamond
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Location
Yacolt, WA
We have been developing an articulated arm that works inside of a machine and our customer is showing an interest in these units. Each part requires about two dozen machined parts - the largest starts from a block of aluminum about 8" x 8" x 14" and requires removal of about 75% of the material.

We are making all of the milled parts (along with a huge mess) on our Tree J425 - I don't even want to think about the mess we would make if we got an order for a system (which is 16 actuators + spares). Our customer is thinking 5-10 systems a year. If we head down this direction, we will need a better solution for milling.

This is the resolver housing for the 2-axis motor assembly - this is typical of the parts we have to make for each actuator. We make covers for one end, stator housings, drivetrain housings with bearing bores, etc. All of the turned parts go into our turning center which has a nice chip conveyor and leaves no mess. :)

Considering we bought the Tree for $1000 on Craigslist - I am pretty happy with how it is running after a little bit of creative retrofit work . . . all the same, we can't do these parts in quantities on this machine.

2011-04-05_17-49-57_640.jpg


2011-04-05_17-49-39_655.jpg


I would like to make 4 of these at a time - not sure if a VMC or an HMC is the best way to go. I am open to ideas.

I did a search of the local craigslist and came across this - seems like more machine than we need and probably more money than I want to spend considering it would need further investment of time and $ to get it into production.

Any thoughts on what it would take to get this one into production?

Haas VF-5 Vertical Machining Center CNC 50 Taper

This is a used 1999 Haas VF5 Machining Center in great condition. It was used to prototype a specialty machine then warehoused. The machine has very low hours. The machine has a 50 taper 7500 rpm spindle with 2 speed gear box. It does not have a tool changer or the tool clamp/unclamp air cylinder and draw rod. The enclosure and chip pans were never used and are in like new condition. The machine has the built in chip auger. This machine is a great value for someone who doesn't need a tool changer or who wants to save $70,000 off of new pricing and install their own tool changer and complete this project. This machine is being sold AS IS as a great project machine. Fully supported by your local Haas dealer for parts etc.



EQUIPPED WITH:

Haas CNC Control (8MB Memory, 4th Axis Ready, Visual

Quick Code Programming, User-Definable Macros,

Coordinate Rotation & Scaling, High-Speed Machining,

Remote Jog, Floppy Disk Drive, Spindle Orientation)

2-Speed Gear Box - High Torque

Auger-Type Chip Conveyor -


VF5_01.jpg
VF5_02.jpg


VF5_03.jpg
VF5_04.jpg

sorry for the tiny photos - Craigslist photos are kinda dinky . . .


Our other machines include a open side planer mill with a CNC retrofit and two milling heads for larger parts and a CNC turning center (Whacheon copy of a Mori Seiki with a Fanuc controller) - and of course the J425 . . . so our primary need will be production parts (primarily aluminum)

I might even consider a VMC or HMC with no controls if the price is right.

Any "good" advice is greatly appreciated . . . :D
 
How many do you want to make? How much do you want to spend on a machine? I wouldn't touch that one with a 30' pole. If you get a used machine get one that will make parts or you may find yourself with someone else's big headache.

I would do them on a horizontal. One tombstone with 4 parts for first op and one tombstone for second op. It never stops and just makes parts :)

Depending on your quantity it may be worth it to sub them out for a while until you know what volume you need. Buying a machine and realizing you need something different can be costly.
 
I think I have seen that machine floating around for a LONG time!!! Long enough for nearly anyone to put it back together and sell it. I suspect there is a big reason the thing is totally broken down... Obviously everyone else shares my views on the matter since it is still sitting there...

Regarding parts, just need to look at the logistics of the deal. How many, how many per day, budget for machine, etc. HMC or VMC will make your parts just fine. Just have to setup for it.
 
If you would be doing straight up production on the machine and you can afford it I would also suggest a HMC. Not only like stated before with the chip evacuation of you pictures parts, you would be able to stack up more material on two or four sided tomb stones and get some lights out machining time.
 
At present, a single actuator requires about 60 hours of machine time on the Tree - a single order qty is anywhere from 18-22 units and our customer has expressed interest in 5 - 10 systems a year.

This "new" design replaces an actuator that we designed and started selling in 1999 - we made 400+ of those actuators over a 5 year period and now just make them occasionally for spares support.

This design is far more complex with far more parts (addresses higher speed machines and known product damage issues) - and I expect that we will sell this in similar quantities as before as the older units are pulled out and retrofitted to the new design. Conservatively speaking - I figure we will sell 80 - 100 actuators a year - which with some optimization should be able to do in 25 -30 hours of machining per actuator. This would be roughly 2000 - 3000 hours of machine time per year depending on how well we did in getting efficient and sales volume.

The more I think about this - the more I think and HMC would be the best solution.

Thanks for your input.
 
My .02.

Buy a machine that runs and is reliable. Skip the "I'll buy and fix or retrofit".


HMC is a pretty penny to buy and tool...but if you have the work. Then you have to realize you'll knock down the time dramatically so that 3000 hrs on your tree may be well under 1000 hrs...If machine is free and clear by then, cool you have an HMC. But if not, do you have work to feed that machine.
 
Just FWIW, Motion Guru is not your average machine shop guy. His company builds automation and does retrofits full time, he'd probably have an easier time putting a new control on a machine than cutting the parts. And he'd find it fun, most likely.
 
Mud - thanks for the vote of confidence. I am pretty sure that most people think a dead machine control is something to RUN away from :D

If I can take that kind of dislike for a machine and turn it into a cheap price on a good piece of iron - I'll take advantage of it if I can. :)

We are doing a lot of Sinumerik 840D Solution Line work now - would be nice to have one on my floor to demo for customers. :scratchchin:
 
We are doing a lot of Sinumerik 840D Solution Line work now - would be nice to have one on my floor to demo for customers. :scratchchin:

That would be a breeze for you to put on those $7000 Lancers wouldn't it? If I had the floorspace and the resources they'd be here already.
 
Motion,

Is that part aluminum or steel? The Haas has a 50 taper spindle, so I would guess that the RPM will be limited. That will really slow you down in aluminum. You probably want more tools than that will hold as well.

I would personally not recommend a horizontal for anything but production. That is not a 4 axis part, so other than chip evacuation and possibly machine rigidity, a horizontal would have no real advantage over a vertical. At those quantities, you would not need a pallet changer or a 4 sided fixture. Horizontals are such a pain to set up and fixture that I don't think they make sense for the volumes you are running.

A 40 taper VMC with a good set of fixtures, a 30 tool magazine, and a high speed (and high memory) control would make short work of those parts. Plus it will be pretty handy for 1-off parts when not running production.

Something like this:
KITAMURA MYCENTER 3XIF Machining Centers, Vertical Used - MachineTools.com

Do you have a CAM system?
 
ewlsey - nearly all machined parts are aluminum.

We use FeatureCam and do our design work in SolidWorks - The one part pictured is one of a couple of dozen parts that are needed for an assembly.

The drivetrain housing is the deepest / most complex machined piece with a 3-1/2 inch deep pocket milled with bearing housings, o-ring grooves and lots of deep through holes around the perimeter. It has seal pockets and mounting features on the opposite side.

That Kitamura looks pretty neat - and I appreciate your comments - having never had either a VMC or an HMC - and never done this kind of volume in-house, I readily admit that I don't know the drawbacks of an HMC setup.
 
"The more I think about this - the more I think and HMC would be the best solution."

How many shifts or hours do you have someone working per day? How many hours in a year? 2080 hours in a normal 40hr/week year. If you worked that machine at 100% efficiency 40hr weeks will get you 2080 hours. Best i can do with my vertical machine that i change parts out on is 60-70%. Sometimes more, but often less so i would say thats average. If you need more than 1450 hours of cutting per year and only plan on running one shift then you need more than one vertical. And you better be on top of changeovers to minimize down time.

Horizontals can get you into the 90+ range. pallet systems will get you dang near 100% PLUS run all night long while you sleep if you want.

Just have to do the math. 2 verticals will be more than 1 horizontal and twice the maintenance. :)

There wouldn't be any drawbacks except up front machine cost. Tooling is the same (except tombstones, but you can make those). Setup is also the same. You still have to do the exact same steps as you would setting up any machine. A horizontal takes longer because you usually have the flexibility for more tools, more operations per clamping and 2 tombstones. Just takes more thought and planning to run more efficiently. So longer per part setup? Not when you figure a 6 op part can be done in 2 ops and you would have to set that part up 6 times in a vertical.

Also, dozens of parts? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to set every tool off you need and leave them in the machine. You also have multiple sided tombstones to work with for setup. Quick change fixtures that re-locate themselves and you have flexible volume production when you want it. Program it, set it and check fixture positions every once in a while. You could get really crazy with multiple tombstones. Even if you had to hoist them in to swap over.

Im about 6 hours from you. If you would like come by the shop sometime and i can show you the difference between a vertical and horizontal. I will have my new H machine around the end of the month. First week of May it should be shooting out aluminum chips like they are snow cones..
 
Chip evacuation in cavities even of moderate depth (over an inch or so) is bit of a hassle...whenever the cavity becomes a lake full of coolant, you're pretty much stuck with assigning someone to be there to blow a big mess around, and possibly get chips in the toolchanger.

It's funny how something that minor becomes like an infected splinter in your foot....even after only one shift :D

Perhaps a vertical mill with through the spindle coolant would work okay, but the Haas programmable coolant rig is not the greatest for deep cavity clearing.
 
I love nothing better than to have a HMC in my shop. I run plenty of repeat production jobs that would just beg for a HMC. That's what a horizontal is made for. But the type of work Motion will be doing(probably specialty parts in all shapes and sizes in low volumes), the HMC may not be the answer. Sure deep pockets and hogging is where they shine too, but what if you want to machine a 60" long part? What about a job that has a qty 1 of 80 different parts. You will not get them done faster in the HMC. The VMC allows better access to the part, easier to set up, a larger travel in a smaller foot print, costs less, and if used, may not be completely clapped out. For a prototype shop, enginneering firm, onesy twosy job shop, the VMC is the way to go.
 
I think I have seen that machine floating around for a LONG time!!! Long enough for nearly anyone to put it back together and sell it. I suspect there is a big reason the thing is totally broken down... Obviously everyone else shares my views on the matter since it is still sitting there...

Regarding parts, just need to look at the logistics of the deal. How many, how many per day, budget for machine, etc. HMC or VMC will make your parts just fine. Just have to setup for it.


Ya that thing is about 30 min away from me and I keep thinking of just looking at it as a freak show.
 
To answer your originally posted question, no it's not too much machine. I have 2 similar sized machines and we do parts as small as .22 X .36 X 2.20 on it. The large table allows us to gang up a lot of vises for multiple parts, and/or set up more than one job at one time, allowing us to break into a long run to squeeze out a prototype part or a short run and return to the original job without resetting it. And when you need a big Y axis, a small one just won't do. A 50 taper is really nice to have when removing a lot of metal.
 
Yup, horizontals are nice, but for overall production the VMC is the most versatile.

What I want to know is where "motion guru" got my picture to use as an avatar????? :)

Mike
 








 
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