'91 Haas VF-1 Drops Tools - ATC Issues

moparmuscl · Oct 25, 2011

I just bought a 1991 Haas VF-1 from a local machine shop. The only issue that was relayed to me was that the automatic tool changer drops tools occasionally (1 in every 5-10 changes). It drops the tools when they are released from the spindle and setting in the ATC forks. When it changes, I noticed that the cat 40 holders are not all the way into the fork of the ATC. The grooved area on the holder is lined up with the corresponding profile on the inside of the fork, but it is not all the way bottomed out; It it out almost the entire distance of the grooved area. I can easily push the holder all the way back into the fork, so I think it's aligned. Has anyone run into this problem? Any recommendations on what to look into? Thanks in advance!

SDConcepts · Oct 25, 2011

we had a similar problem.

1 there is a bushing the runs on the swing arm. if this is loose then the atc may not travel far enough to engage the tooling in the spindle to remove it and hold it. in order to fix this you have to remove the cover on the where the servo motor resides (its the big rectangular box just above the carousel.

2. our tool holding forks were so worn that even when the atc popped all the way on, the tool would still pop out. had to order the forks from haas, not that expensive and the thing runs like new.

The Energy Rebel · Oct 26, 2011

Check out the "fingers" in the ATC (I'm guessing it's an umbrella type) and look for stripped bolts, loose fingers (another sign the bolts are stripped) broken fingers, etc.
You may find that tool holders 1-5 are shot, so try a higher # tool for now.

I usually do a tool change a 5% rapid and feed hold at the moment I get the best view inside and take a long look around.

Might be something else too, but I'd definitely start there.

moparmuscl · Oct 26, 2011

SDConcepts said:
we had a similar problem.

1 there is a bushing the runs on the swing arm. if this is loose then the atc may not travel far enough to engage the tooling in the spindle to remove it and hold it. in order to fix this you have to remove the cover on the where the servo motor resides (its the big rectangular box just above the carousel.

2. our tool holding forks were so worn that even when the atc popped all the way on, the tool would still pop out. had to order the forks from haas, not that expensive and the thing runs like new.

I started taking apart the tool changer last night. It has several of the sliding doors missing and is very dirty. I have the entire outer plastic 'shell' removed and plan to clean it as well as the tool changer. I was given several extra used forks, so he must have had a similar problem before. I guess I'll get new sliding doors, springs, and forks at a minimum.

As for the bushing, I'm not sure I'm understanding which one. I am calling the swing arm the part the mounts the 'V' tracks for the entire tool changer. Those appear to be bearing 'V' wheels. Or, are you talking about the main pivot for the ATC? That's the only think I can see that is accessed from inside the box. Thanks for the help!

The Energy Rebel said:
Check out the "fingers" in the ATC (I'm guessing it's an umbrella type) and look for stripped bolts, loose fingers (another sign the bolts are stripped) broken fingers, etc.
You may find that tool holders 1-5 are shot, so try a higher # tool for now.

I usually do a tool change a 5% rapid and feed hold at the moment I get the best view inside and take a long look around.

Might be something else too, but I'd definitely start there.

Great idea! I never though about slowing the tool change down! I might see about taking a video if it's not obvious not. The more eyes looking at it the better. Thanks.

machineit2 · Oct 26, 2011

The fingers seldom wear out, but the bushings and such get gummed up and stick. Also chips get into the springs and such. If you have the carousel off, just disassemble it all, clean and reassemble it.

Cleaning the carousel is something that needs to be done often. Haas does not recommend using coolant, but I have done it for 20 years. Once a week or so I spray it all over inside the carousel. The coolant can blow out the chips and the coolant itself will dissolve any build up of dried up coolant that causes the sticking. Then I just blow air in it to remove standing coolant.

Good luck----Mike

moparmuscl · Oct 26, 2011

I went out and snapped a couple quick pictures. I have some of the bottom plates taken off the ATC. As you can see it is in desperate need of a good cleaning. I confirmed that the ATC is not coming all the way out to the spindle; if I had to estimate it is off by about 1/8". This causes the tool to slide out of the fork as the spindle moves down over the holder and the taper starts to line up. I see the limit switch, but I don't see any adjustment. The track is clean and free of debris. I'll check the repair manual tonight for a fix. I also noticed the the spindle dog is very slightly miss aligned from the key in the ATC. I guess I'll look into that as well, however, it is not off much. I would suspect the main culprit to be the limited travel of the ATC when it moves toward the spindle.

299929_10150427248256454_664461453_10378020_384117278_n.jpg

machineit2 · Oct 26, 2011

Sure looks familiar to me. I had a 92 VF-1 I bought new. It is a shame that yours was so poorly cared for. It is a job to clean it all up, but you can do it.

I have a 96 VF-2 now that I bought from a local company. I got it at a real good price, but it also had not been cared for. They had never cleaned it and when they did the last job or two, they did not clean it at all. I had to chisel the vises off and only got one to work after that. The other was not salvageable. I also had the chisel the slots on the table to clean them out. It was like concrete. Took me days!

Good luck and get that baby back into shape.

Mike

D. Rey · Oct 26, 2011

You may solve your problems by just taking that atc apart and cleaning it.

Show that machine some lovin

behindpropellers · Oct 26, 2011

moparmuscl said:
I went out and snapped a couple quick pictures. I have some of the bottom plates taken off the ATC. As you can see it is in desperate need of a good cleaning. I confirmed that the ATC is not coming all the way out to the spindle; if I had to estimate it is off by about 1/8". .

]

There is a parameter in the machine that you can change that will fix that. I would follow others advice to clean the machine and then follow up with a call to HAAS tech support line on how to align it.

Tim

machineit2 · Oct 26, 2011

behindpropellers said:
There is a parameter in the machine that you can change that will fix that. I would follow others advice to clean the machine and then follow up with a call to HAAS tech support line on how to align it.

Tim

There is no parameter for the carousel adjustment, it is strictly a lever moved by a motor. There is a parameter for the tool change height of the spindle though if that is off.

Mike

moparmuscl · Oct 26, 2011

machineit2 said:
There is no parameter for the carousel adjustment, it is strictly a lever moved by a motor. There is a parameter for the tool change height of the spindle though if that is off.

Mike

I looked this morning in the repair manual, but didn't see a parameter for carousel movement. I did see a manual adjustment using the HHB bolts (I have no clue what those are....I still have reading to do). I did notice the offset parameter, and I think it's out of adjustment as well because the spindle seems to pull the carousel upward when it picks up the holder.

Thanks for all the input guys!!!! This is a great forum and the fast support is making me very glad I bought a Haas! I'll update everyone after tonight's work.

moparmuscl · Oct 26, 2011

Got it fully disassembled (or as far as I'm going to take it). The ATC guard is cleaned up inside and out, the servo motor is cleaned up, and I think I see how I adjust the carousel movement. I'll have to take the rest of the parts up to work where I have access to a parts washer.

I did confirm that the spindle height is off (too high) during the tool change, so that's why he kept bending forks. As soon as the retention knob gets grabbed inside the spindle, the entire ATC carousel gets pulled upward.

Pics if anyone cares:

haastec · Oct 27, 2011

moparmuscl said:
I did see a manual adjustment using the HHB bolts (I have no clue what those are....I still have reading to do).

Hex Head Bolt.

You should be able to adjust the carousel in the X and Y axis using the mounting bolts, they are slotted to allow for adjustment.

moparmuscl · Oct 27, 2011

haastec said:
Hex Head Bolt.

You should be able to adjust the carousel in the X and Y axis using the mounting bolts, they are slotted to allow for adjustment.

Thanks! I saw those bolts while I was cleaning and noticed the slots. I figured that's what I would use, but I didn't know what the acronym stood for. I was looking into adjusting the spindle height parameter for tool changes (parameter 64, if I remember correctly). However, the manual says it is locked out until it is unlocked. How do I go about unlocking it? I'm assuming I can call Haas, but do you know the trick so I don't have to call?

haastec · Oct 27, 2011

moparmuscl said:
Thanks! I saw those bolts while I was cleaning and noticed the slots. I figured that's what I would use, but I didn't know what the acronym stood for. I was looking into adjusting the spindle height parameter for tool changes (parameter 64, if I remember correctly). However, the manual says it is locked out until it is unlocked. How do I go about unlocking it? I'm assuming I can call Haas, but do you know the trick so I don't have to call?

Setting 7, parameter lock = off.

Place the machine in E-Stop then you can change parameter.

SIM · Oct 27, 2011

Wow that looks familiar.

A quick tip while your all apart.
Manually check each fork to see if they grasp the holders firmly. It does not take much wear for them to offer a flimsy hold and drop a tool.

Replace or in a pinch give the fork a squeeze in a vise...you didn't hear that here as it is frowned upon...but has gotten me thru a couple of long weekends of work when I couldn't order up a new ones.

BGL · Oct 27, 2011

WOW, I'm not the only fool to dive head first into a project like this! After almost a year I finally ran a short program on my VF-0. Lots of very helpful people here.

moparmuscl · Oct 28, 2011

haastec said:
Setting 7, parameter lock = off.

Place the machine in E-Stop then you can change parameter.

Great! I'm sure I'll have a handful more eventually...

SIM said:
Wow that looks familiar.

A quick tip while your all apart.
Manually check each fork to see if they grasp the holders firmly. It does not take much wear for them to offer a flimsy hold and drop a tool.

Replace or in a pinch give the fork a squeeze in a vise...you didn't hear that here as it is frowned upon...but has gotten me thru a couple of long weekends of work when I couldn't order up a new ones.

Thanks for the tip. I was starting to rush it and throw it back together. I just checked and there are about 9 forks that are loose. I'll check to see if any of my grab bag of spare forks are any good.

BGL said:
WOW, I'm not the only fool to dive head first into a project like this! After almost a year I finally ran a short program on my VF-0. Lots of very helpful people here.

I'm amazed that the simplicity of this Haas...it's great! I'm just someone that loves to turn wrenches, but this doesn't appear to be very hard to work on. Now the electronic control panel in back is a different story.

So I got the fork holder disc carousel/tray cleaned up last night. I have several forks that need changed out before I go back together. I was given a large grab bag of old forks when I purchased the machine, so I'll go diving tonight to see if any are any good. If not, I'll just order a completely new set. I have to order about 12 of the sliding doors that keep debris out of the ATC as well as about 12 of the v shaped pieces that hold the doors in place.

I plan to call Haas to see if I can get a parts manual for this. Can anyone recommend a cheap Haas dealer to buy these parts from? Thanks guys!

One of the loosest forks:

moparmuscl · Oct 29, 2011

Alright, got everything fixed except one last little detail. I installed different forks on the ones that were loose, adjusted the carousel so it travels in farther in, adjusted the offset of the carousel in the y-axis, inspected the spindle orientation, and made sure everything was level. It works great and hasn't dropped a tool is several tests. The only thing I still think could be improved it the timing of when the retention knob of the tool holder is grabbed. it seems like it is grabbed slightly before the spindle is all the way down. The result is the carousel is slightly pulled upward until the spindle finishes its travel down. I'd estimate the carousel is being pulled ~1-16"-3/32". The spindle offset is correct as the forks line up perfectly with the groove in the tool holder, but the timing of the solenoid that shuts off and dumps the air pressure is off. How can this be adjusted?

BGL · Oct 29, 2011

Mine was real bad and would often not grab/release tool then would time out and alarm. I replaced 1/4" quick coupling in the airline and directly connected with a 1/2" line and troubles went away.

Yes, there is a pressure regulator, I believe it controls the open pressure and therefore the speed/timing release of the draw bar. You may want to go through the pressure adjustment procedure that is in the book to be sure. I did mine after changing the fitting and dissembling, cleaning and lubing the draw bar and so I cannot swear it was the fitting but all that was worth it as everything was quite funky and the book stresses a restriction free airline.

To access it you must remove the top most spindle cover, this has the fan attached so look for the wire. With this cover/fan off you will find the regulator on your lower right facing from the operators position.

That being said I work with four Haas mills including my own. In my experience a small amount of movement is "typical" even on a new machine, some more/less then 1/16".
Hope that helps..

'91 Haas VF-1 Drops Tools - ATC Issues

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