Super Mini 2 vs. DT-1

OK....I'm looking at both a new Super Mini Mill 2 and a Drill-Tap 1.

Everything seems to be equal for travels and cost, but when looking at speed and power, the DT-1 comes thru at almost 2x ahead.
Delivery time is 5 wks for the SMM-2 and un-asked for the DT-1. (but not a big factor for me)

I desire to stay a small, one man shop and my current tooling system is BT-35, so whether I go to #40(SMM-2) or #30(DT-1) tooling doesn't mean much.
I need to make a rather quick decision, but it seems like a no-brainer to go with the DT-1.

Anyone care to talk me out of it??

What about machine accuracy and repeatability ?

goooose said:

What about machine accuracy and repeatability ?

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We're talking Haas here.

If you go with the SMM2, get the side mount tool changer. At least the DT1 keeps the tools out of the mess.

I thought the DT-1 was 15,000 rpm in the first adds they had.

Anyway, for the dollar I don't see a reason to not go straight to a VF1 or VF2, unless your work requires a #30 taper with a lot of rigid tapping, and uses small tools that could use the higher rpm.

1200 vs 2400 IPM rapids on a machine with that tight travels really means nothing at all.
DT-1 is 5hp/cont, probably similar for that SMM2. VF at least is 7.5hp/cont.

Would be interesting to know how well the DT-1 is selling now though, with the increase in price of the robodrills and other tapping/drill centers, I think the Haas would be quite a bit more attractive now for those who need that particular type of machine. I looked a fair bit at this type of machine before making my decision and I don't regret going to a #40 taper(2412 vmc)

What SND said. Go for a VF machine.

Third the VF machine. Drill Tap centers/mini mills are attractive based on price for one man shops, but you'll find that you're limited on the work that you can do profitably. Drill Tap centers have their place (I have one too), but if you were to have one machine the wiser business decision is to have a solid mill.

How much space do you have?

How fast can you, the one man switch out stuff?

Seems like two TM2P's with the big table loaded up could utilitize one human better.

behindpropellers said:

How much space do you have?

How fast can you, the one man switch out stuff?
...

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That's part of my problem. I'm in a 30'x30' shop.
A VF would be hard to fit. (haven't yet evaluated a VF-1 or TM2P)

My plans are to keep my 1981 Kitamura vmc running as long as possible while having a smaller, quicker (and enclosed) machine to run the 3D jobs and higher volumes.
What I need right now is reliability.

Then trade out the Kitamura for a newer, solid built machine.

I use a manual pallet system and gang up parts whenever possible, so 1hr. per 20 or 30 pc. cycle times are not unusual.

rkucbel1 said:

Third the VF machine. Drill Tap centers/mini mills are attractive based on price for one man shops, but you'll find that you're limited on the work that you can do profitably. Drill Tap centers have their place (I have one too), but if you were to have one machine the wiser business decision is to have a solid mill.

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Can you expand on your experiences with your DT center?
Max EM size/DOC in alum, steel, etc.

The specs seem rather lightweight and am still trying to track one down locally to see in person.

Thanks

For get the TM. Too light. Too underpowered. Too slow.

30X30. You have tons more space than me(4 sq ft. Mines 28X32) Get creative. Here's my space and I still have plans to shoe horn in a 2nd turing center.

david n. Congratulations on a neat lab with alot of machines!
Legdoc

I will say so far my DT1 has been great. I regularly take 2-3 mins off run times vs the VM2. Chips are a problem with the pan out the back. A Mini mills takes up less depth. The DT spindle is also much quieter than the mini. The extra 4 tools you can get with the Side mount would be nice. But I am very happy with the DT1.

i think it all depends on what kind of work you are bringing in. as said above the drill/tap and minis have their places but for a 1 man band and trying to tackle anything that comes through the door i'd fork out a bit more and get a VF-2 i'll be looking for one hopefully soon to go into my 21' x 24' start up shop.

The DTs are not for milling. The smaller 30 taper is too light for any heavier materials. The minis are good for your garage or prototype stuff. If you are stuck with single phase power then the mini is good. Or if you have bigger parts then the TMs.

If you can run 3 phase power do yourself a favor and buy a VF. It has a 40 taper spindle, more tools, full enclosure and a chip removal system. You can get older VF-2 with a 7,500 spindle and a gearbox for less than you can buy a used mini mill.

just my 2 cents.

The DT with cosume more power that the Mini or the VF. I believe Hass calls for 100amp breaker on the DT. They have a 40 HP vector drive in the DT. If you have the power great, if not something to think about. A VF with a gearbox only requires a 40 amp...

n88n said:

The DTs are not for milling. The smaller 30 taper is too light for any heavier materials. The minis are good for your garage or prototype stuff. If you are stuck with single phase power then the mini is good. Or if you have bigger parts then the TMs.

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Is this based on experience or just a guess?

I looked at a DT-1 and I am pretty sure it would be a great performer in small aluminum parts and crank them out quickly. Not for milling? Everything I have read and seen says otherwise.

But maybe I am wrong. I don't think the DT-1 is in the same class as a Robodrill, for sure.

SRT Mike said:

Is this based on experience or just a guess?

I looked at a DT-1 and I am pretty sure it would be a great performer in small aluminum parts and crank them out quickly. Not for milling? Everything I have read and seen says otherwise.

But maybe I am wrong. I don't think the DT-1 is in the same class as a Robodrill, for sure.

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I saw a demo of the DT at the HFO open House last September/October and let me tell you, for machining small parts it was pretty amazing to watch!

The spindle cranks up to 15,000 rpm and back to a dead stop in about a second (thus the 40HP vector drive) and the tool changes are literally done in the blink of an eye.

Had it not been for the HUGE power requirement, I would have one sitting in my shop next to my VF-0 right now.

However, being on single phase and not having enough power as it is now, it was out of the question..........So instead I went out and bought a building to move my shop into and once I get everything settled.......

THEN I will get myself a VF-2, cause it will do a hell of a lot more than the DT-1 (though not as fast perhaps-but it does have a12K spindle option) and I won't have to buy a whole new set of tool holders for the machine.

As for "completely" machining small parts........from what I saw, it will most certainly do that!!.......and in a friggin' hurry!!

Later,
Russ

I thought you guys would know better than to trust such ratings by now...

That DT-1 thing would run fine on 20amps all day long.
The Brother TC machines which have about twice the REAL power of that and even faster acceleration only draw 25amps/cont(220v) and there's probably some safety factor into that as well.
100amp is big horizontal mills type of power demand, just the wiring in those probably weighs more than the DT-1.


Edit, its very odd that Haas would even put such ridiculous high power requirements when all the high end builders have been using " energy savings " in the marketing about how much less energy their new machines waste vs their older models and how they can save you $ in electricity. Yet haas chooses an approach similar to GM or ford saying their smallest car gets 3 miles a gallon. Might be time to smarten up on that a bit.

I'm not even sure I understand what the previous post was meant to say.

I can tell you this, it's new world, where everybody (manufacturers) have to give disclaimers to non-existent worries. The lawyers and the frivolous law suits run the country.

When Haas states the power requirements for their machine and when they give minimum requirements for power, concrete floors, and every other damn thing involved in setting up and running their machines, they do it with the lawyers in mind. Hell, you can't even disable the door switches any longer!!!!

I have said before that I ran my VF-2 for about a year on a 20 amp breaker and had no issues. When they (Haas) figure the power requirements they figure every single circuit drawing its maximum load. (IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN)!!!!!

You may hook up your machine with 4 gauge wire or even bigger, but look inside the cabinet afterward..... You will find about 12 to 14 gauge from the breaker to everything else from there on through.

My current machine, VF-2, I bought from a local machine shop. The cord they had from the machine to the wall outlet was enormous!!!! It was so big and heavy that they had to tie it with string to the outlet or it would come out, literally!!!!! It was an inch in diameter!!!!! If you want it for your new machine, I'll give it to you, I sure as hell would never use it.

Let's bring these posts on power usage and requirements down to earth. It does not mater what the actual horse power is, if it makes your cuts. Someone please let me know if you max out the spindle, X, Y, Z, and A axis's all at once. That I would like to see.

Otherwise, hook your machine up and make some parts/money. Oh, and have fun!!

Mike

machineit2

It actually matters a lot to have proper accurate specifications. They should be listing a real power requirement in KVA like all other builders, and no fudging the numbers either...
In the case of the DT-1 I can only hope its a typo, they actually have that same 100amp thing on most models up to the ST-40.

Issue here is that you end up with people who will look at the DT-1 spec on the site and say, damn, 100amp, I only have 30amps, and instantly rules it out. So, you have perhaps 5-10, 20-~ people who rule out a machine because of such a crazy number on a spec sheet because they don't know much about electricity and trust the spec sheet, and next thing you know you're not meeting your sales expectations, no idea why, and you scrap the project because the ROI isn't there.


Lawyers have no business with electricity and how machines are rated, its none of their concern. There's electrical codes/standards for that, then we have a huge grey area that allows manufacturers to then rate them as whatever they want for advertising, just like the 8.75hp 120V shop vacs. So a couple CNC builders chose to use that peak rating tactic to make things sound better than the other builders who still stick to a good cont/30min rating, some don't even state a duty cycle. That's like saying you're driving at 60miles and leaving out the hours. Fair enough, its legal, if people can't figure out that an orange painted green is not an apple, tfb. I guess the sad thing here is it actually works rather well.

I ran into that issue with a different M brand where they said it would require a 30hp PP when on the actual machine specs if was well within what a 20hp PP can run, and its only a 15hp motor. So I ruled them out.