Tooling question on a HAAS VF 3 CAT40

I purchased a HAAS VF 3, I am now looking for the CAT40 tool holders, the question is should I buy a new set or used? Who has the best quality for the money in new holders? What is the standard size collets? Or should look for used? What type of holders would be a good starter set ? Or should I piece one togather?

That is like asking what color of dog is best, as far as brands. You will get too many answers to make it worth while.

First: Decide on how much money you have to spend!!!!! That is the biggest consideration. Then figure out what kind of work you will be doing, I.E. lots of small tools like small drills and taps or are you using medium and large endmills for machining metals.

Second: Realize that when you buy a big "SET" you will probably get much that you don't need.

Third: Tool holder are made of metal, metal can rust and pit, but it is still metal and seldom becomes unusable. The only exception is if the tool hole gets damaged. Set screws can be replaced. So if you can find good used, especially endmill holders, I would not pass them up. Ten years ago I would not buy imports, but today they are pretty damn good quality and I would buy them. Modern equipment to make them has improved immensely.

Forth: If you want to do precision work, it is best not to put endmills into collet chucks. Get regular endmill holders for them if you can. You may end up needing 4 or 5 in the 1/2 inch size alone.

Fifth: Collets are pretty much a necessity, especially ER-16. They will hold those tiny tools and drills you need at times. ER-25's are fine, but ER-32's give you more size options for the same money.

Sixth: You have 20 pockets in that machine, but you may need 30 - 40 holders at any given time for various tool sizes depending on the work.

I have attached a couple of pictures of my little collection. Not much, but you will see the variety.

Hint: Always check eBay and other sites for bargains, when you find them, buy them!



Best of luck with your new machine.

Mike

I agree with most of what was said in the above post, except this-

"Forth: If you want to do precision work, it is best not to put endmills into collet chucks. Get regular endmill holders for them if you can."

When i think of "endmill Holders", i think of the holders with a set screw on the side. Those i would use for roughing, but not anything "precision"(When i think "Precision", i think shrink fit). Also, you need endmills with a flat for those, which is a total pain in the ass if you ask me. Not to mention, your collet chucks will cover a pretty good spectrum of sizes with the collets. Endmill holders are designated to one size only.

I think a nice selection of Er 32s and Er 16s collet chucks is a good way to start. If your not looking to break the bank, Techniks is pretty reasonable price wise for what you get.

agree with all except the advise to put endmills in weldon endmill holders. I think most weldon endmill holders using a set screw will runout more than er or tg collets. They will at least under use because they are a slip fit and only the set screw pushing your tool against one side of the bore it will be easy to bend about.

real "milling chucks" would be better yet. hydraulic or roller cam (assume you dont want to get into shrink holders)

I do use endmill holders because they are cheap, but not on my most picky finishing or long length cutters.


^^^^ beat to the punch.

Maritool sells very nice very resonable holders

While I understand your concerns with some tool holders, you are giving some bad info.

First, you do not need Weldon Flats to use a tool holder with an endmill, they will hold just fine without them. Only used a few Weldon Flat endmills in my life and most were HSS and not carbide.

Second: A 1/2" endmill is not 1/2" either in the flutes or the shank. Below I have posted the specs on three different brand name manufacturers 1/2" endmills. Mounted in a regular tool holder they are just fine. The holders tolerance is very tight and allows almost zero slop in the first place. You have just two surfaces that come into contact with each other and can promote error.

On a collet holder you have a minimum of three surfaces that mate and can cause error. Also any one leg of the collet that does not align properly (say has a build-up or a chip in there) will throw it off. I'm not saying that I do not use them, I certainly do. I'm just saying they are not perfect either.

Shrink fit is very nice, but not for frequent tool changes and job shop type work necessarily. They are much more expensive and you need a heat unit for change. But, you can see I have one for deep mold work.

So it is a matter of choice with most people, but please don't disregard regular endmill holders. JMHO


Mike

Mill Diameter Tolerance (Decimal Inch)+0.000 to -0.002
Shank Diameter Tolerance (Decimal Inch)-0.0001 to -0.0004

Mill Diameter Tolerance (Decimal Inch) -0.0000 to -0.0020
Shank Diameter Tolerance (Decimal Inch) -0.0001 to -0.0004

Mill Diameter Tolerance (Decimal Inch)+0.000 to -0.002
Shank Diameter Tolerance (Decimal Inch)+0.00000 to -0.00043

Mike, i wasn't trying to say your opinion isn't worth a listen...Just that i don't agree. I can obviously tell by the OPs question, he is in no need of shrink fit tooling. Just was saying the last thing i think of when it comes to side lock holders is Precision. Definately they have their uses, i have some myself that i use for roughing. Their rigid, and the endmills never slip in my experience. But i think they have much more room for runout and/or tool wear being that there will always be a heavier load on some flutes then others. There has to be room for the endmill to slip in one of those holders, making it pushed to one side when the set screw is clamped.

Also, was pointing out the benfits of Er collets when starting out. If the majority of your tooling is sidelocks, your stuck with those sizes. Ers, they will fit any size collet you have.

Never tried running a sidelock with an endmill that doesn't have a weldon flat on it. Seems a little crazy...But whatever gets the job done is fine with me.

Well I like Labrador retrievers a nice tan color, I need a basic Cat 40 set , I will piece it together. A few that take collets , drill chuck, indexable face cutter, and a few that will hold specific end mills. I would a Brand name that people are familiar with and have personal used . What I had before is a Bridgeport. The VF 3 is in my home shop ,with the hope of pulling a few small contract jobs in and to start a small business.

Does anyone run they Haas on a rotary phase converter? If so what is the brand name? The local power company want $10,000 to $12,000 for three phase service.

As mentioned...Techniks or Maritools are fine for what you want to do. I don't have any Maritool holders, but i'm sure their fine as anything i've ordered from him has been fine.

Don't use a Tan Retriever, they aren't good at makng chips.

As for the PC. I hear Phase Perfect is the way to go, but you'll pay for one of those. I have a American Rotary Phase converter that runs 2 machines, Been trouble free for the time i've had it.(Not running a Haas, but i'm sure theres a ton of Haas' running on PCs in garages around the country).

Just so happens that I run my shop off of a converter. This whole industrial area, hundreds of shops, and no three phase, how stupid is that.

Run mine off of a 20 horse I bought off of eBay for about $800.00. I know people will jump down my throat, but the converters do not need to be the $5,000 precision balanced perfect units that people will tell you.

My first shop in California, in a residential area, was run off of a home built converter. I built it from a 30 hp three phase motor I got from a salvage yard. No capacitors or anything. Just put a 110v motor on the nose to get the three phase motor turning and then put the power to the three phase motor and it would run fine. Just turn off the 110v motor, which was on a momentary switch anyway and run all day making parts. Ran a VF-1 mill, a CNC lathe, a Bridgeport mill, 20' disc grinder and a lathe off it it without ever a problem.

You should be able to pick up a 20hp some where locally. They are usually around, check Craigslist.

Mike

I recently bought all new tool holders for a VF-1, and went with Maritool. I made a list of the tooling I'd be using for this job, and figured out which holder I'd use for each tool, and added a couple more of the common end mill holders and collet chucks. For what its worth, my Maritool holders all say made in the USA on them.

Glacern is having a sale through the end of the month, including package deals on collet holders with pull studs included. I don't have any of their tool holders but am very satisfied with their 6" precision vise.

For what its worth, my Maritool holders all say made in the USA on them.

+1 on the made in USA if you can afford it. We bought around 50 CAT40 holders from Parlec for our Mazak VCN510C. Almost all ER32 and ER20 with a couple ER40 and a 1" weldon for a big aluminum rougher. Very pleased with the quality and the made in USA stamped on all of them. Apparently their business is going pretty well because the delivery time was not that quick. That could be a concern for some people.

We have bought a few Kennametal holders here and there and you just never know where it might be made. One may be USA, one may say Germany and then you get one that says INDIA. Global conglomerates.

We have also ordered a few Accupro from MSC for the speedy delivery and cheap price. Can't complain about the quality. Really nice holders. Don't recall where they were made. I'm sure they were foreign though.

Whether you buy new or used, maybe this info could be useful. I would suggest trying to get all your ER holders the same length for the interchangeability. Makes it easier to keep the coolant on the tools that way too. We use mostly 3" or so length ours.

If you are going to do any heavy milling or slotting, avoid the weldon holders. Carbide mills with no flats will slip and cost you a part somewhere along the line. Trust me... At least grind a flat spot for the screw and it will help some. End mills will perform way better and last way longer in hydraulic holders or the milling collet holders like the ones Albrecht makes. Those things are great. Don't let a cheap holder cost you money in the long run.

--Gary

If I were to retool my collection of cat 40 here is what would be in it:

10 ER16
10 ER32
5 TG100
5 Shrink or Hydraulic
1 -2 face mills.

At this point I rarely use the cat 40 drill chucks I own and almost never use the weldon style.

Thank you everyone for your input now I have a stating point and can move forward .