What's new
What's new

dual voltage 1.5 hp?

kngkong

Aluminum
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Location
Wellington, New Zealand
So I ended up getting this Mill and now looking for a VSD so I can run it at home as 3 phase is an expensive proposition.

bridgeport.jpg


Can anyone tell whether this motor is dual voltage or not? It should be the original 1.5 hp motor.

Thanks all!
john
 
That information is normally found on the motor nameplate. I can't read the plate in your picture, but the plate seems to be there.

Larry
 
John

Looks like that machine follows the British Adcock-Shipley build specification with all the control contactors, power feed controller and large transformer in the big box on the right hand side. If so it will be a dual voltage motor but getting everything going on an ordinary VFD will be a considerable game. You will have to re-arrange much of the control gear and provide separate power to the power feed controller. Which all frightened me off!

Best option is a 440 volt output converter either rotary or one of the "plug and play" type VFD units (as sold by Drives Direct in the UK and presumably others elsewhere) which can be used in the same manner as a proper three phase supply with the machine operated via its own controls. Ordinary VFD units prefer to handle motor on off and run up to speed functions via their own controls. Switching the VFD on first then operating the machine controls risks damaging the unit, by premature ageing of the input capacitors, if nothing worse happens. I have one of the Drives Direct units, friend Mike has a Transwave rotary converter both were as much plug and play as any electrical set up is.

As its a varispeed head there is little benefit from a VFD.

Clive
 
That information is normally found on the motor nameplate. I can't read the plate in your picture, but the plate seems to be there.

Larry

John

Looks like that machine follows the British Adcock-Shipley build specification with all the control contactors, power feed controller and large transformer in the big box on the right hand side. If so it will be a dual voltage motor but getting everything going on an ordinary VFD will be a considerable game. You will have to re-arrange much of the control gear and provide separate power to the power feed controller. Which all frightened me off!

Best option is a 440 volt output converter either rotary or one of the "plug and play" type VFD units (as sold by Drives Direct in the UK and presumably others elsewhere) which can be used in the same manner as a proper three phase supply with the machine operated via its own controls. Ordinary VFD units prefer to handle motor on off and run up to speed functions via their own controls. Switching the VFD on first then operating the machine controls risks damaging the unit, by premature ageing of the input capacitors, if nothing worse happens. I have one of the Drives Direct units, friend Mike has a Transwave rotary converter both were as much plug and play as any electrical set up is.

As its a varispeed head there is little benefit from a VFD.

Clive


Clive: I just found a supplier in New Zealand for the TECO brand VFDs which I believe are the same as what Drives Direct has. Sounds like the best solution. Thanks.

Larry : Mill is arriving this week and Ill post a pic of the engine plate. Will see how soon it takes to get the VFD. Might have a couple more questions on set up when it does.

Thanks for the help!
John
 
That TECO brochure describes a normal VFD, of the type that does not want any switching between it and the motor. They work well if you follow that rule. Wiring to a mill requires that you understand how it works and how to separately control a power feed and coolant pump, if they exist on the machine. It is usually not difficult to wire the old motor control switches on the mill to operate the VFD remote functions. If the power feed and coolant motors are single phase, they are easily powered separately, not through a VFD.

Larry
 
kngkong

For what I'm using see :- www.drivesdirect.co.uk/
In particular :- http://www.drivesdirect.co.uk/Produc...ers240_415.htm (Mine is the older version of the 10 Hp model shown with slightly different button styling.)
and www.drivesdirect.co.uk/how_to_choose.htm.

Sorry I don't know about suppliers in NZ.

Larry

The British Adcock-Shipley build specification is quite complicated on the electrical control box side with a good deal of inter linking between the head motor (both if you have 2 heads), feed motor and coolant motor controls. Plus a big transformer with 20-0-220-380-440 volt input taps and 110V, 55 V, 0-12-24-50 output sections. Usually with the labels faded beyond legibility or missing completely. The control gear is usually 110 V coils. Its a lot easier simply to feed the beast 440 volts rather than try and re-jig for a basic low voltage VFD set-up. Unless of course someone has a proven circuit and how to do it data along with all the component location and wire position data.

Clive
 
kngkong

For what I'm using see :- www.drivesdirect.co.uk/
In particular :- http://www.drivesdirect.co.uk/Produc...ers240_415.htm (Mine is the older version of the 10 Hp model shown with slightly different button styling.)
and www.drivesdirect.co.uk/how_to_choose.htm.

Sorry I don't know about suppliers in NZ.

Larry

The British Adcock-Shipley build specification is quite complicated ...... Its a lot easier simply to feed the beast 440 volts rather than try and re-jig for a basic low voltage VFD set-up. Unless of course someone has a proven circuit and how to do it data along with all the component location and wire position data.

Clive

Clive, your first link didnt work but Im guessing was supposed to link to here?
http://www.drivesdirect.co.uk/Products/Digital_Inverters240_415.htm

so, I should be looking at something like a 2 HP - ADVANCED VECTOR SINGLE TO 3 PHASE 415V CONVERTER? That will "to feed the beast 440 volts rather than try and re-jig for a basic low voltage VFD set-up" as you suggest and be a better unit like Larry is suggesting?

Thanks for the help, there are so many options as far as inverters go and I have no idea where to start.
 
Clive,

Here is more information from the TECO rep here when I explained I may be looking for the advanced MA model which looks like the one you linked me to.

"The MA units are for 415V input The UK company convert them to accept a 230V input ( we do not do that)
As long as you just need a digital drive the CV 7300 should be OK "

???????
 
I have converted my dual voltage Adcock and Shipley to run using a 220 volt three pahse invertor (I assume that is what you are calling a VFD). I did not like paying the price asked for a Plug and Play invertor or the fact that this is an unofficial conversion to the standard invertor. I spoke to both Jaguar and Teco before I went ahead with this and neither company seemed very happy that someone was modifing their product after sale and then reselling it.

I have the coolant pump on a separate invertor - thus giving me a variable speed coolant pump and the power feed takes its electrical feed from the large transformer in the box, all of the rest of the contactor equipment in the box is now redundant

My control system for the main motor and the coolant motor is now mounted in a box fitted where the original Bridgeport on / off box was fitted.

The only complication was setting the motor to its lower voltage as it is an American motor which is connected differently to UK practice.

If you need any further advice let me know
 
I did not like paying the price asked for a Plug and Play invertor or the fact that this is an unofficial conversion to the standard invertor. I spoke to both Jaguar and Teco before I went ahead with this and neither company seemed very happy that someone was modifing their product after sale and then reselling it.

Now that's interesting. I was assured that the Pug and Play unit I have was a standard product, certainly mine doesn't appear to have been opened and modified. Guess its time to do a bit of investigation myself and find out what's going on. I shall be less than happy if I find I've been recommending a bodge!
Although mine does exactly what it's claimed to do and Teco can't be that unhappy if they keep supplying the boxes.

I considered your approach but rejected it because I didn't want to loose the control inter-linking or go through the work of replicating it with a different set-up. Then a 2 hp rotary converter turned up cheap which did for a while.

Clive
 
Guys, Im having a really hard time figuring out what my solution is going to be and making sense of these inverter specs are above my understanding.

Can someone take a look at the spec for this model and tell me if this will give me easiest/best solution? Im going for something like Clive's setup so I dont have to split up motors between different power sources.

Even though the Teco rep says that Drives Direct's units have been "modified" to accept 220V input (from 415V input) looking at the below spec sheet seems to show a model 220V model (outlined).

inverter.jpg


inverterSpec.jpg


Here is a link to the website

and brochure .pdf

If this wont work, can you tell me why and if there is any better easier choice?

Thanks!
John
 
A standard invertor will not act as a transformer and will give you a three phase version of whatever you put in to it. i.e. if you feed it with 220v you wil get 220v output but 3 phase.
These machines were originally designed as motor controllers to give variable speed and other desirable characteristics - such as soft start.

If you go to a "Plug and play" system you will have to purchase an invertor of sufficient capacity to cover the starting current of any motor you chose to run from it. Most motors will require a starting current of at least 3 times the running current so if you have a motor of 1.5 hp (1,2 kw) you will need an invertor of at least 3.6 kw in order not to exceed the capacity of the invertor.

Drives Direct are "modifying" a standard invertor to get 415v 3 phase output - this modification invalidates the manufacturers warranty and invalidates any certification provided by the manufacturer - such as UL - lloyds etc.

To go back to the problem
Is this machine manufactured to the Adcock and Shipley specification?(ie a UK spec machine)
What is the motor size?
What is the voltage rating?
Can we have a picture of the rating plate of the motor?
What voltage , frequency and phase supply do you have available?

Once I have all this information available can I try to advise on best practice.

In the meantime have a look at the Transwave website they will give you a second opinion on 3 phase conversion
 
To go back to the problem
Is this machine manufactured to the Adcock and Shipley specification?(ie a UK spec machine)
What is the motor size?
What is the voltage rating?
Can we have a picture of the rating plate of the motor?
What voltage , frequency and phase supply do you have available?

Once I have all this information available can I try to advise on best practice.

In the meantime have a look at the Transwave website they will give you a second opinion on 3 phase conversion

Ill hopefully have the machine tomorrow and will post the motor plate as asap. In the meantime the previous owner sent me this info from the motor plate. Unfortunately his camera didnt work but here are the numbers.

5 - GO X693921
HP 1-1/2 PH 3 cycles 50
frame 145TY-4 V 210 - 2.5
O 420
Design B - code HC rpm 1440
Serie AL A-25-O
Model F-X166-00-270
Type TVY 40 C amp

Is this machine manufactured to the Adcock and Shipley specification?(ie a UK spec machine)
Yes, I believe so

What is the motor size?
1.5 HP

What is the voltage rating?
from the numbers quoted above would that be 210/420?

Can we have a picture of the rating plate of the motor?
Will have this tomorrow. See above

What voltage , frequency and phase supply do you have available?
230 V 50 Hz single phase
quoted from here
http://www.kropla.com/electric2.htm


Thanks a lot dpcwright. I feel like Im getting somewhere :cheers:
will post motor plate as soon as I can
john
 
I have just been to look at the rating plate on my machine and it is similar to yours - the frame size and type are the same - therefore I expect that your motor is dual voltage

Mine has voltages 200-220 and gives current rating for those volts and 400-440 volts plus the current ratings.

Given that you have 230 vots supply you will need either of the two options

a) run your whole system as I do on 230 volts three phase via a standard invertor - this will involve reconfiguring the motor to low voltage and changing the control system

b) run the system on 415volts three phase via a standard invertor and three phase transformer - for this to work you will need a system capacity of at least 3.6 kw

Either way has complications neither is a simple operation and will require some electrical knowledge

The possible third way is a rotary or static converter but this is "stone age" technology although it will work.

David Wright
 
A standard invertor will not act as a transformer and will give you a three phase version of whatever you put in to it. i.e. if you feed it with 220v you wil get 220v output but 3 phase.
These machines were originally designed as motor controllers to give variable speed and other desirable characteristics - such as soft start.

Not necessarily.

Two mechanisms can be used:-

  1. Single phase 220V line-neutral in, three phase line-neutral out will give almost 380V star out.
  2. The input rectifier can be configured as a voltage doubler. This can give 220V in, 415V delta out.
Neither is difficult at the design stage. No 2 is relatively simple as a modification to an existing invertor.

Teco may not warrant it, but in the UK your warranty is with the supplier, Drives-Direct in this instance, so there's no issue.
 
I have just been to look at the rating plate on my machine and it is similar to yours - the frame size and type are the same - therefore I expect that your motor is dual voltage

Mine has voltages 200-220 and gives current rating for those volts and 400-440 volts plus the current ratings.

Given that you have 230 vots supply you will need either of the two options

a) run your whole system as I do on 230 volts three phase via a standard invertor - this will involve reconfiguring the motor to low voltage and changing the control system

b) run the system on 415volts three phase via a standard invertor and three phase transformer - for this to work you will need a system capacity of at least 3.6 kw

Either way has complications neither is a simple operation and will require some electrical knowledge

The possible third way is a rotary or static converter but this is "stone age" technology although it will work.

David Wright

Hi David,

Thanks for laying out the options clearly.

Im liking the sound of option A as it sounds the simplest and cheapest to me.

What is involved with "reconfiguring the motor to low voltage"?
Is that going from Star mode to Delta mode?

What is involved with "changing the control system"? Is it only the table powerfeed motors and coolant pump need to be replaced? I would be replacing them with 230V units?
 
Not necessarily.

Two mechanisms can be used:-

  1. Single phase 220V line-neutral in, three phase line-neutral out will give almost 380V star out.
  2. The input rectifier can be configured as a voltage doubler. This can give 220V in, 415V delta out.
Neither is difficult at the design stage. No 2 is relatively simple as a modification to an existing invertor.

Teco may not warrant it, but in the UK your warranty is with the supplier, Drives-Direct in this instance, so there's no issue.

Mark,

Is 380V sufficient?

is there any info online on configuring the rectifier as a voltage doubler and is it safe?
 
Mark,

Is 380V sufficient?

is there any info online on configuring the rectifier as a voltage doubler and is it safe?

380'll do for a 415V motor, a bit minimal for a 440V one though.

I wouldn't do the conversion. It would be simpler to get a 220 to 440 (or whatever's appropriate) transformer to feed the VFD with. Note that 440 to 220 will do the job just as well, within a percent or so, when connected the other way around. Even a 220-220V isolating transformer connected as an auto transformer will do the job to get enough voltage to the VFD.
 








 
Back
Top