Got a Chance to Buy a Hardinge HLV-H, Advice Needed... - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotarySMP View Post
    I followed that link, and now my eyes are bleeding.
    Goddammit those morons are just over the top with those paint jobs.
    Absolutely disgusting. Who buys that shit?
    Clueless export customers?

    I think I need to 'ask a question' on the EBAY ad...
    "Are you really that F'in clueless about appropriate machine tool paint colors and how they relate to the reality of you NEVER selling this POS" ?
    But obviously he is, and doesn't get it.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by car2 View Post
    The scales look like an earlier version of the accurite ENC150 (and 200T display that would go with them) on the mid-80's EM I have...If it's in good mechanical shape, offer him somethin over half what he paid for it depending on how it checks out, being able to check it out is very useful and worth somethin. Good Luck!! Cheers
    Thanks for your post! I think this is most likely a 1980 machine +/- 1 year.

    The only tooling besides about 60 5C collets is an old looking 4" 3-Jaw Hardinge brand chuck with the integral taper, a steady rest, the "banjo" thing for the change gears and a few gears, the KDK tool post and a few holders, and a couple of live centers. I have far more tooling for my Schaublin.

    We still haven't really discussed price. I think the owner is going to make around $1m from the sale of the building. Hopefully he'll see the light of getting reasonable prices for the machines and getting them out of there. I'm hoping we can make a deal around the figure you proposed or less. We'll see...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkmc View Post
    Goddammit those morons are just over the top with those paint jobs.
    Absolutely disgusting. Who buys that shit?
    Clueless export customers?

    I think I need to 'ask a question' on the EBAY ad...
    "Are you really that F'in clueless about appropriate machine tool paint colors and how they relate to the reality of you NEVER selling this POS" ?
    But obviously he is, and doesn't get it.
    To me it isn't so much that the color isn't "appropriate" but that is done so sloppily, where you can tell they painted over much of the grime and painted parts that never should be painted any color, much less that horrid "Yoder Green". Plus it looks awful to paint a machine but then do nothing to replace well worn name and data plates.

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    Plus it looks awful to paint a machine but then do nothing to replace well worn name and data plates.
    .. or touch them up. Or at least clean the overlap off around the edges if one was too lazy to mask well. Not HARD, after all, either of those.

    Colour aside, that sort of sloth shouts "lazy holder, trying to HIDE s**t" more than anything else. If there wasn't much to hide? Credibility is damaged, suspicions created, regardless.

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    To me it isn't so much that the color isn't "appropriate" but that is done so sloppily, where you can tell they painted over much of the grime and painted parts that never should be painted any color, much less that horrid "Yoder Green". Plus it looks awful to paint a machine but then do nothing to replace well worn name and data plates.
    I was taught young that you cleaned a surface before painting it, particularly you needed to clean off any oil. It was a real revelation when I got out of school in 1963 and into a test lab where the equipment was painted from time to time. I commented when a mechanic was slapping green paint onto an old test fixture, including the oily parts. He assured me that he was using special machine paint that was designed to work on oily machines. Must be what Big Yoder uses to save a lot of time when doing a "liquid rebuild." Big Yoder is the huge dealer in Holland, OH. A ways west, in Delta, OH, was Little Yoder, a much smaller machinery dealer, but I see that Yoder died a couple years ago..

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    ...Of course there is this beauty to consider

    This has been on eBay a long time and will probably remain there for all eternity....I can't imagine in my wildest dreams who would buy that thing, even at half his ask price. It's as if the seller was thinking "hmmm...how can we make this as ugly as possible?"
    That is the worst paint job in the worst color I have ever seen. They ruined that machine with that chop-shop job. If you look carefully you'll see in one of the photos that they got paint on the leadscrew!

    Also, there is NO paint that is meant to go onto oily surfaces. Nothing sticks to oil. Painting is at least 90% surface preparation and equipment preparation.

    A bad paint job is far worse than the worst condition original paint. It makes it very difficult to ever restore the equipment to good condition.

    Not just talking out my arse here. Here are before and after pics of a Voegtle motor used to power bench mounted Swiss lathes such as Schaublin that I sold to a member of this forum many years ago:

    voegtle_motor_outside.jpg

    voegtle_motor_painted.jpg

    I got the Schaublin grey color matched at Benjamin Moore. I used their Alkyd Enamel (probably discontinued now - the guy told me it would be gone soon). It went on nicely (HVLP gun) and dried hard (can't be marred by a fingernail).

    You just have to give a scheiße!

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    That teal enamel-entombed EM has been on Feebay for years (and the subject of several "worst paint job" posts) at the same outlandish price. Might be worth a fraction of the price for parts (that aren't worn out). It would be a bunch of work just to crack the paint off of things that shouldn't have been painted in order disassemble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cinematechnic View Post
    ...Also, there is NO paint that is meant to go onto oily surfaces. Nothing sticks to oil. Painting is at least 90% surface preparation and equipment preparation....
    I know. That story about the "special machine paint" illustrates the age-old practice of oldtimers messing with youngsters.

    Larry

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by L Vanice View Post
    I know. That story about the "special machine paint" illustrates the age-old practice of oldtimers messing with youngsters.

    Larry
    Right, like the metal "putting-on" tool you have to look for if you make something a bit too small...

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    Quote Originally Posted by L Vanice View Post
    Must be what Big Yoder uses to save a lot of time when doing a "liquid rebuild."
    In the heavy truck industry I heard the term "Pittsburgh Overhaul" years ago, which meant a used road tractor was pressure washed, then a coat of flat black hosed all over the undercarriage to hide defects and worn-questionable areas. Maybe the cab got a new paint hose job as well.....
    Then put up for sale as "rebuilt" or "reconditioned".

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    So... the owner asked $11k for the HLV-H.

    Now I need advice from the experienced: What should I be looking for that would justify a price around $11k? Are there any tests I can do with gages to determine condition?

    Should I cut a bar and see how the diameter holds? What would be an acceptable tolerance?

    Any advice is appreciated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cinematechnic View Post
    So... the owner asked $11k for the HLV-H.

    Now I need advice from the experienced: What should I be looking for that would justify a price around $11k?
    Probably a decent used car.

    You already have a Schaublin. You want a very, very similar work-envelope Hardinge mainly to cut threads? Both are good lathes. Damned good.

    Do you need near-as-dammit "twins" - capability-wise? "Cousins" at least.

    At all. Just for threading?

    Or should one lathe add larger (or smaller) work-envelope, turret tooling, or even be a precision drillpress, tapper, grinder, milling-machine or CNC machining center instead of a second manual lathe. One that cannot easily even share 100% of its tooling with its "cousin"?

    2CW

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    Quote Originally Posted by cinematechnic View Post
    The torque needed to turn the wheel was reasonably consistent from end to end of the bed.
    Was that after putting a bit of drag on the bed with the carriage lock lever when it was located in the headstock area ?

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    There are a lot of folks more experienced than myself, and if you search there are lots of threads for checking these out, from simple to more complicated. Visually inspecting the bed for general appearance (is it scratched up, dented etc), look for ridge/undercut on the dovetail faces, backlash/smoothness of dials, check drag on carriage from end end with a bit of pressure on the carriage lock near the headstock, check/feel the inside of the spindle for wear where collets seat, check leadscrew for obvious wear. If powered up, check all functions work, motor speeds and speed adjust, carriage feed and speeds, crossslide power feed, listen for bearing noise. Others have more experience on what would be useful to put indicators on, such as on the carriage to bed to look for bed wear, twisting the carriage, spindle runout, and turning/measuring a test piece. Good luck, maybe you can talk him down a bit, or there's some more tooling around; it should check out in above average/good condition for the asking price(IMO).

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  20. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    Was that after putting a bit of drag on the bed with the carriage lock lever when it was located in the headstock area ?
    This is a good idea. I've checked out several HLV-Hs, here's a few things I suggest checking:

    - The compound has a quick retract lever. The cam on the lever wears, the mechanism loosens up, the whole thing is not as repeatable with wear.
    - Collets go in the spindle in the same location each time thanks to the pin that locates the collet. After thousands or more of open and close of the collet you can feel ribs in the spindle taper at the location of the three slots in the collet. You can get an idea how used the machine is by feeling these ribs.
    - Open the door to the gears on the left side of the headstock. There should be a couple banjos and some gears in there. If not the lathe still works fine, but custom threads need these parts and they should be there.
    - The lead screw wears out on these machines. Engage the half nuts and use the carriage hand wheel to see how much you can move the carriage back and forth. Do this near the chuck and out towards the tailstock. Should be about the same. Back and forth movement near the tailstock indicates worn half nuts, more movement near the chuck indicates worn lead screw. You can usually see lead screw wear visually, look at the thread profile near the tailstock end and compare near the chuck.
    - make sure the carriage feed, bodine, works both left and right and over all speed ranges.

  21. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    Was that after putting a bit of drag on the bed with the carriage lock lever when it was located in the headstock area ?
    Unfortunately no. Didn't know about that. But I will have another chance to check the machine on Saturday.

    I did try moving the X axis feed and looking for play between the dial and the DRO display. Backlash seemed to be minimal. Did the same for the carriage (Z axis) and it also seem to have little backlash.

    Thanks to all for the suggestions. I may be able to get a friend and HLV-H owner to check it out with me. He'll definitely know what to look for.

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    I want to say thanks to all who posted. I've learned a lot from this and even if this deal does not go through, I'll know what to look for next time.

    BTW, I was at the shop yesterday, getting some great deals on small tooling and Delrin which I use to make parts and tools.

    A machine tool broker that had sold the owner some of his equipment came in and took a look. He made an offer, which to my understanding included everything (but possibly some machines were excluded). $20k for everything and the big selling point "We can have it all out of here in one day".

    If that included everything it meant: The HLV-H, three other big engine lathes, four Bridgeport Mills, three SIP jigbores, and one GIANT SIP jigbore.

    I understand why a dealer would have to do it that way, but it just goes to show how much better a deal it is for an owner closing a shop to sell a particular machine to someone who is going to use it himself.

    Back to the HLV-H:

    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    Was that after putting a bit of drag on the bed with the carriage lock lever when it was located in the headstock area ?
    I tried your suggestion and the torque was still reasonably consistent. I've used another HLV-H that got noticeably tighter towards the tailstock (even without any drag applied).

    Quote Originally Posted by adh2000 View Post
    - Collets go in the spindle in the same location each time thanks to the pin that locates the collet. After thousands or more of open and close of the collet you can feel ribs in the spindle taper at the location of the three slots in the collet. You can get an idea how used the machine is by feeling these ribs.

    - make sure the carriage feed, bodine, works both left and right and over all speed ranges.
    Thanks for those tips! There are noticeable collet ridges on the HLV-H spindle that can be seen and easily felt. On my Schaublin 102N, I can see marks from the collets but they can hardly be felt. So the HLV-H has had substantial use compared to my 102N.

    I tried the feed and it seemed to work fine F/R on the carriage and X axis. That's a nice feature!

    Unfortunately seeing that feature in action made me feel like someone who having spent a career driving a truck with a 4 speed manual unsynchronized gearbox gets behind the wheel of a truck with an 8 speed electronically controlled automatic gearbox...

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  24. #38
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    Once again thanks to all who posted. A deal is in the works...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    To me it isn't so much that the color isn't "appropriate" but that is done so sloppily, where you can tell they painted over much of the grime and painted parts that never should be painted any color, much less that horrid "Yoder Green". Plus it looks awful to paint a machine but then do nothing to replace well worn name and data plates.
    It's always amazing to me that companies will pay someone to paint a machine, but they won't even consider paying someone to clean it. And cleaning before painting is out of the question.

    The last place I worked was like that. It was a foundry full of smoke and dirt. A brand new machine would look like something out of Mad Max after about 6 months. Every summer they hired college kids to paint everything they could reach. I never saw them clean anything. Of course the paint would blister and peel in short order. Job security I guess.

    Every machine I went to work on was slathered in 10 coats of blue paint. Every bolt or cap screw had to be scraped or picked out before a wrench would fit. They painted over conduit and warning labels.

    Plus every machine was painted some awful pastel blue that they picked out in the 1970s when the company was founded.


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