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  1. #21
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    Building a home made rotary phase converter is a great option. There are even kits available on ebay where all you need to add is a properly sized 3 phase motor. You can certainly run this on a 3HP idler, but I would try to consider any other machines that you are thinking of buying and build a converter once. I run a 10hp which can run almost every machine in my shop. It is balanced with run capacitors as mentioned above. I do have one machine with a 10hp motor that I add a second 7.5hp idler into the circuit in order to power (yes you can do that)

    Peter

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by crzypete View Post
    ... I do have one machine with a 10hp motor that I add a second 7.5hp idler into the circuit in order to power (yes you can do that)

    Peter
    FYI A machine running idle acts exactly like an idler. And having multiple motors running, it's somehow the electric equivalent of a bigger flywheel and it will help starting a bigger motor otherwise difficult to start with the RPC alone.

    Paolo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paolo_MD View Post
    As far as I know (once again: I'm not an expert), this setup is still better than a static phase converter, but not as good as a "real" rotary one, since you would need a bank of running capacitors to both properly space the three phases (i.e. making them as close as possible to 120°) and balance the voltage of the "wild leg".

    My understanding is that, anyhow, the balancing with capacitors is itself a compromise, unless you have a fairly constant load attached to the RPC (i.e. it is perfect only for a particular load and drifts off-perfection either with lighter or heavier loads).

    Paolo
    Not a capacitor in sight with this rig. Not needed as the manufactured leg is within five percent of the utility legs, loaded or not.
    Trick is to have the idler motor large in respect to the load motor. Here it's 5 hp vs .75 hp, basically five to one. The phase
    relationships between the power provided is always 120 degrees apart on each leg, this is a direct result of the way the windings
    are done on the idler motor. You *cannot* change this.

    Starting is done via a pony motor, no start capacitors. Low inrush current is a side bonus for this system.

    Total cost was for the wiring devices and wire to hook things up. Everything else was from surplus freebees.

    I've been running machinery (south bend 10L, the hardinge ESM59, and a hardinge UM milling machine) for about 25 years
    now, with that setup as it is shown above. Prime benefit is running the hardinge two speed motors with no changes to the
    machine wiring. Plus the ability to plug reverse the SB lathe.

    Just to mention however I've currently got three machines that run on small single phase 120 volt VFD units and those
    work well in some situations as well.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Not a capacitor in sight with this rig. Not needed as the manufactured leg is within five percent of the utility legs, loaded or not.
    Trick is to have the idler motor large in respect to the load motor. Here it's 5 hp vs .75 hp, basically five to one. The phase
    relationships between the power provided is always 120 degrees apart on each leg, this is a direct result of the way the windings
    are done on the idler motor. You *cannot* change this.

    Starting is done via a pony motor, no start capacitors. Low inrush current is a side bonus for this system.

    Total cost was for the wiring devices and wire to hook things up. Everything else was from surplus freebees.

    I've been running machinery (south bend 10L, the hardinge ESM59, and a hardinge UM milling machine) for about 25 years
    now, with that setup as it is shown above. Prime benefit is running the hardinge two speed motors with no changes to the
    machine wiring. Plus the ability to plug reverse the SB lathe.

    Just to mention however I've currently got three machines that run on small single phase 120 volt VFD units and those
    work well in some situations as well.
    Thanks for the help! I guess that I will have to study up how to cobble this up.

    As far as a that whole internal control transformer is concerned, I'm not certain that I am explaining things correctly


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    You can just get an American Rotary converter. I too just got a DSM59 and got an RPC, solely for this machine. And like Jim Rozen, we both have Hardinge with HEavy-10'a near by

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    Sorry I have been MISSING for a couple of days but been real sick from trying to do too much.... had to drop back and out! The next time you see some guy on disability doing some sort of work in his yard or on a car, please remember that guys are guys and we all dread admitting our limitations so we try to do things that will probably put us in bed for a week. Do sent make us disability cheaters it makes us guys with thick skulls lol


    OK so the small amount of components needed to build one of these gems Jakes me NOT want to buy 100 kit! Mi have trusted suppliers that can give me real good prices on these things the problem is I don't have an oscilloscope to check the phases. Is there another way or is it simply a voltage thing? I'm having a hard time finding a 3-phase motor to believe it or not. None on Craigslist anywhere around here. And people on eBay seem to think they're worth a fortune.

    You can find list of parts all over the place for these but which one is correct and which one is full of junk? Does anybody know a good tutorial that includes parts list?

    Thanks again guys big help

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    I have another small issue the cross line you know the double cross slide and the 59? Well the Gibbs busted great at the end where the Locking screw wood go I still may be able to lock it I'm not sure period I'm going to reassemble it today

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    The gib is toasted no way to lock it, and I learned today that you have to make them custom for every machine, the repair place I called said he couldn't even get them anymore....... I think I'm going to try to adjust the gib in by hand them put a set screw in front of it to keep it in place. Perhaps put three sets screws to push down brass pins to hold it in adjustment?


    It sucks to have to modify it before 3ven getting started lol

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    [QUOTE=Xnerd;2940038]I'm having a hard time finding a 3-phase motor to believe it or not. None on Craigslist anywhere around here. And people on eBay seem to think they're worth a fortune.[QUOTE]

    I have purchased several at hgrinc.com in Cleveland.
    Item 0217-193-0017 looks like a good fit for your needs.

    I prefer the 6 pole motors, I have built several of this size. I am able to plug reverse on the DSM-59 or the Bridgeport all day long.

  13. #30
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    Jim-

    Interesting chucker- the tailstock type turret on it is unusual. Worked in a shop that has an early dovetail chucker with what appears to be the usual chucker turret, except that the cross slide feedscrew can be disconnected and a rack and pinion engaged for easy facing. Handy feature, but have never seen another one.

    Xnerd,

    The big transformer should also be saleable as a stepup transformer. There are quite a few of these machines out there that are 440V only, in shops with 220V. Shipping is the kicker here.

    Neil

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    I have purchased several at hgrinc.com in Cleveland. Item 0217-193-0017 looks like a good fit for your needs.
    I prefer the 6 pole motors, I have built several of this size. I am able to plug reverse on the DSM-59 or the Bridgeport all day long.
    They will not reply to my inquiry regarding that motor !
    I guess I will have to call Monday

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    I have hesitated to ask this question again because it wasn't clarified earlier when I asked but I need to understand this better so I will ask anyway....

    It was suggested to me to wire to the control transformer once I get the phase converter in place (which is still on hold). I still don't understand this ... why would I simply not wire up the main power entry switch (3 blacks)? If the load is balanced within 5% should that be what i do??


    To recap how it was wired when I got it:


    Shop voltage 440 ----->[ 440/230 Stepdown Transformer]-----230------>[main switch 3 fuses @30 amps]----230----->[main internal wiring]

    Again I was told to remove wires from the transformer and run power directly to the [control transformer].....?

    Why wouldn't I simply do this:

    [Rotory Phase Converter]----------230------>[main switch 3 fuses @30 amps]----230----->[main internal wiring].....?


    Thank you for helping me to understand this
    Is there internals (based on the e-box image that i posted) that I should bypass?


    It seems to me simply bypassing the large stepdown would be my only requirement and would not include touching the control transformer at all...


    Thanks

    Jeffro

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnerd;2942222
    ...Why wouldn't I simply do this: [Rotory Phase Converter
    ----------230------>[main switch 3 fuses @30 amps]----230----->[main internal wiring].....?

    ...It seems to me simply bypassing the large stepdown would be my only requirement and would not include touching the control transformer at all...
    You've got it exactly right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    You've got it exactly right.
    Thank you very much then I must have misunderstood before. He told me to wire directly to the control Transformer to remove wires from there then add the 230 to it.

    I decided to get an American rotary converter I will be able to get it in about a week. I'm getting the 5 horsepower model. My last question is does it really matter which of the face wires goes where? Assuming if it's balanced it would not matter but I have seen some videos where they talk about the manufactured leg should go to a certain spot in the wiring. I'm assuming with a good balanced converter that shouldn't matter am I assuming correct?



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    Last edited by Xnerd; 03-20-2017 at 09:18 PM.

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    If you've got the right voltage, and all legs are balanced, all that remains is to insure the correct polarity upon hookup (correct spindle rotation, so you don't fuck up the speed control).

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  21. #36
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    Generally, you want to avoid connecting the generated leg (="wild leg") to the controls. There are two main reasons for that. First, although balance, it's always more noisy and could interfere with the controls (that's true mostly with machines with more complex controls than yours). Second, even if the RPC were to fail somehow, you don't damage the controls and you could potentially stop the lathe in a more orderly way.

    Paolo

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  23. #37
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    Could I then ring out the legs from the [control transformer] BACK to the power inlet switch box and mark them utility? I'm assuming that there would be a complete isolation between these legs throughout the system?


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    It was suggested to me that if I end up purchasing a phase converter that I should buy a American rotory phase converter. I have seen some good deals on a machine called Pro Line? Is this a good company?

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