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Hardinge DSMA

spooky

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Location
West Virginia, USA
Is there anyone here with some Harding DSMA experience? I have some questions about the suitability of this machine for what I am looking to do. I have virtually no screw machine experience, save for running two B&S machines for a very limited time once. And had no set up experience.

Anyhow, I may have an opportunity to start making the screws for a company and I'd really like to pick someone's brains about setting up the DSMA's, change over from one job to the next, what tooling I may require, etc

Thanks!

CE
 
I'm not the expert you want, but I can tell you it will be much more annoying to maintain a DSMA than a B&S.

I have a DSM (no A) and rather enjoy using it. I flirted with the idea of picking up a DSMA, as I already had (or could readily make) tooling to fit, but got very turned off when I read a couple of war stories about reconditioning used/abused DSMs and trying to fine-tune timings. Plain mechanical cam automation, like the B&S machines, seems much less problematic to me.
 
I'm not the expert you want, but I can tell you it will be much more annoying to maintain a DSMA than a B&S.

I have a DSM (no A) and rather enjoy using it. I flirted with the idea of picking up a DSMA, as I already had (or could readily make) tooling to fit, but got very turned off when I read a couple of war stories about reconditioning used/abused DSMs and trying to fine-tune timings. Plain mechanical cam automation, like the B&S machines, seems much less problematic to me.

This is exactly one of the things I was wondering about. In my old workplace, it seemed like it took the Brown & Sharpe guy a full day to set up those machines for some of the jobs we did. It also seemed like the search for the correct cam was never over! To me (just watching youtube vids!) it looked like the DSMA did away with the cams. If I am even correct about that, it seemed like that would be a huge advantage. Well, maybe not???

I could buy a B&S too, but I'm looking at relatively small runs of each part. A few hundred of each in the beginning. Maybe I'd be better served by trying to buy a used CNC machine.
 
Not knowing what you want to make, it is hard to tell the suitability for your projects.

Many of us have the manual version a DSM-59.

Tooling questions have been discussed here:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...m-59-lathe-questions-about-tooling-up-340455/

And Here:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...59-dsm-59-tr-59-esm-59-tooling-setups-281018/


There are other threads I can't find right now.

Post some sketches of what you want to make and others will chime in with help.

Bill

Bill, I don't have any drawings, but they are relatively simple 8-32, 10-32, 6-40 and some 1/4-20 affairs. Thanks for the links, I'm going to check them out now.

screws1.jpg
 
Your title sucks! I can tell you that I came very close to locking it. Please read the rules at the top of the forum. Your title tells me nothing as to what your thread is about.
JR
 
I worked with two at two different jobs, 20 years ago. I really like them but keeping them running was a PITA!!!!!!!! I was always tracking down wiring faults, the insulation was cracking, falling off, and causing shorts. With the last one after a few years I got it running one last time, unplugged it so it wouldn't break down again and asked, no told, the owner to sell it and we would invest the money in tooling for the cnc lathe. I would not take one if it was free and it included rigging into my shop. Great iron but the old wiring will drive you nuts.
 
The moderator has chimed in.
You may still be able to edit the thread title, just add: setup help needed.

If your quantities are less than a few hunderd, the DSM-59 is probably be a better choice.
You can save a second op by forming the head of the screws at cutoff.
DSCN1522.jpg

I grind the side of the cutoff blade with the shape of the screw head and support the screw during cutoff with the fiber tube.
This would be done in B&S days with a circular form tool, and a pick off attachment that would slot the screw after it was cutoff.

David has a valid point, DSMA's were more problematic than AHC's... But with good iron, there is a better option than scrap for any of them...

Just worked in a shop yesterday that still has lots of manual Hardinge machines. Several have been converted to CNC by installing Omni Turn gang tool slides. They still use cutting oil on the work. Looking at several setups in the half dozen conversions, they were using a mix of newer insert tools and some of the old 5/8" shank knee tools, to get more tools on the slide.

Bill
 
I worked with two at two different jobs, 20 years ago. I really like them but keeping them running was a PITA!!!!!!!! I was always tracking down wiring faults, the insulation was cracking, falling off, and causing shorts. With the last one after a few years I got it running one last time, unplugged it so it wouldn't break down again and asked, no told, the owner to sell it and we would invest the money in tooling for the cnc lathe. I would not take one if it was free and it included rigging into my shop. Great iron but the old wiring will drive you nuts.

Good info thank you!
 
The moderator has chimed in.
You may still be able to edit the thread title, just add: setup help needed.

If your quantities are less than a few hunderd, the DSM-59 is probably be a better choice.
You can save a second op by forming the head of the screws at cutoff.
View attachment 228856

I grind the side of the cutoff blade with the shape of the screw head and support the screw during cutoff with the fiber tube.
This would be done in B&S days with a circular form tool, and a pick off attachment that would slot the screw after it was cutoff.

David has a valid point, DSMA's were more problematic than AHC's... But with good iron, there is a better option than scrap for any of them...

Just worked in a shop yesterday that still has lots of manual Hardinge machines. Several have been converted to CNC by installing Omni Turn gang tool slides. They still use cutting oil on the work. Looking at several setups in the half dozen conversions, they were using a mix of newer insert tools and some of the old 5/8" shank knee tools, to get more tools on the slide.

Bill

I had not really considered going manual to begin with. That is an interesting thought too. If I did use the cutoff tool to form the head, slotting would have to be done in a second op, no?

That was the major sticking point for me on going manual. It seemed like I'd have to buy some sort of automated slotter, or put them in a collet and slot them one at a time. Is there a faster process I am not thinking of here.

I love the idea of the Omni Turn. There was one Omni Turn converted Hardinge lathe for sale in my area last year and I passed on it. I regret it now.

Great info. Thank you!
 
Your title sucks! I can tell you that I came very close to locking it. Please read the rules at the top of the forum. Your title tells me nothing as to what your thread is about.
JR

I'd be happy to edit it, but cannot find a function to accomplish this. I'll keep it in mind for the future too, I'd hate to be the "sucky title" guy :)
 
I did find this Hardinge w/Omni Turn the other day when I was looking for the DSMA's

Used Hardinge CNC Lathe | HGR Industrial Surplus

Too bad it is far enough away and not under power-set up, that buying it would be a crap shoot.

I am curious about the slotting aspect though. That was one of the many questions about the DSMA to begin with, I didn't know if there was a way to slot as part of the initial operation. Or if a second op would be necessary.

CE
 
I'd be happy to edit it, but cannot find a function to accomplish this. I'll keep it in mind for the future too, I'd hate to be the "sucky title" guy :)

You would need to be in the "go advanced" area to edit the title. It has to be done withing so many hours or it won't show up on the section titles. That's why you were warned.

Almost any of the "A" machines (I was very familiar with the W&S) were a giant step forward when they were new. There was just so many things to go wrong with them after they got a few years on them. Most were replaced with CNCs or mechanical screw machines. I've seen a few that have been converted to CNC, but those machines are still not as versitile as a regular CNC is. Set-up is still a pain.

In one of my past lives, the parent company had a bunch of mechanical screw machines. They had Davenport HPs and Bs then a few Acme-Gridly 6 spindles. Maybe 40 machines in all. Never did a set-up unless they got a part change. Had cycle counters on each machine and ran once a month to get their quantities. IIRC, 6 operators. They had the space and the know-how for them, so that's what they ran. New ops manager came in and told them that they needed to convert to CNCs. Engineering put the pencil to it and found with set-ups and bar changes they'd need 10 machines running 2 shifts and at least 2 programmers plus tons of tooling. That was a $2M outlay with no payback and a higher part cost. Never happened!
JR
 
I didn't know if there was a way to slot as part of the initial operation. Or if a second op would be necessary.
There's no slotting attachment in my DSMA brochure. But there may be a couple of ways to Rube Goldberg it yourself if your other operations allow the use of a slide.

First off, the DSMA has three independent slides plus the turret ram. The DSM's front/rear cross-slide was separated into independent slides for the DSMA, plus you have the vertical slide which can be used for form tools (ASM-C6, if memory serves) as well as cutoff (ASM-13).

Secondly, it's routine on a machine like this, if you can't fit a tool to directly do the job, to use a slide motion and a ram motion together. One motion moves a swiveling or sliding toolholder into position, and the second motion bumps or pushes the toolholder through its active motion.

On the DSMA, you are not going to shape or shave a slot one chip at a time. It's got to be done in a single pass. So you have to use a rotary tool of some kind. You can make a tool holder for a sturdy Foredom or similar shaft-driven tool with a small slitting saw mounted. Saw needs to be "small" to avoid tool intererence. Because the saw is "small", you can't just plunge it into the screw head because the cut radius is too pronounced, so you have to traverse the saw through the screw head to get a flat-bottomed slot.

For safety, rig up both a definite manual OFF switch that overrides everything and also an automatic ON switch that only activates the tool during the proper machine cycle. (Hint, it was pretty common to mount bars or levers of various shapes to the turret to activate expanding die head openers.)

If your other operations leave a slide free (and if travels and tool interference also permit), you can mount the rotary tool to the slide, program a spindle stop with appropriate dwell, program a slide cycle that passes the slitting saw through the head of the screw. That's the simple case.

If your other operations leave a turret position open (etc), you can mount the rotary tool to the turret in a holder with enough side travel to accomodate the width of the screw head. Mount a bumper on one of the slides. Program a spindle stop with appropriate dwell, advance the ram with appropriate dwell, cycle the slide to push the rotary tool holder through its secondary motion.

Note: The DSMA did have an automatic face relieving tool holder (ASM-C5) which I have never seen. The mechanics of that tool holder could probably be adapted to the screw slotting task. It's mounted to the front slide, but the axial motion (slitting saw plunge, here) is built into the tool holder and apparently (from a brochure photo and description) activated by a hydraulic hose. So you could use a hydraulic cycle driven by the DSMA's control, instead of a ram motion, to give a sliding toolholder its secondary motion.
 
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sfriedberg, Thank you. That is very helpful.

This is precisely the type of info I was hoping would come up. I knew there were a lot of considerations I had yet to even think of. I "don't know" what I "don't know" yet.

I keep coming back to cnc in my head. I do have a turret on my Clausing 5914, maybe I should play with it and try to come up with a working process just to learn a bit too.

Thanks much guys.

CE
 
A little late getting here but I second the Omniturn answer. We have had 2 of them running for over 20 years now. Easy to learn and set up very little maintenance, break very seldom. If you were running tens of thousands at a time a Swiss machine with the ability to finish the heads in one set up would be a plus. In quantities of 10 to 1000 of each an Omniturn with a manual turret lathe or horizontal mill for slotting would be hard to beat. New retrofit kits from Omniturn are not being produced, I got their last one for my HXL, not sure if they have any left for the smaller machines. A few years ago you could buy a converted Hardinge with an Omniturn attachment for less than $2000, I have not seen any that cheap for several years now. HitOrMiss posted a link to a thread where I posted photos of a turret lathe being used to slot screws.
 
A little late getting here but I second the Omniturn answer. We have had 2 of them running for over 20 years now. Easy to learn and set up very little maintenance, break very seldom. If you were running tens of thousands at a time a Swiss machine with the ability to finish the heads in one set up would be a plus. In quantities of 10 to 1000 of each an Omniturn with a manual turret lathe or horizontal mill for slotting would be hard to beat. New retrofit kits from Omniturn are not being produced, I got their last one for my HXL, not sure if they have any left for the smaller machines. A few years ago you could buy a converted Hardinge with an Omniturn attachment for less than $2000, I have not seen any that cheap for several years now. HitOrMiss posted a link to a thread where I posted photos of a turret lathe being used to slot screws.

The Omniturn solution is looking better and better. I was trying to find the thread of the slotting operation in the turret lathe, but cannot find it. You don't know where I can find it do you?

Thank you!
 
It is on the last page of post #3s link.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...r-59-esm-59-tooling-setups-281018/index3.html
The photos were done many years ago with a 35mm. Actually got pretty good detail, but the fixture has been moved to a Rouse mill and uses pneumatic cylinders now.
The set up in the photos did lock the screw before milling and unlocked and ejected the screw when the slide was pulled back. The shaft with the spring on it had a taper that operated the lock and was actuated from a bar touching the rear of the compound slide.
I found most of the pieces of the set up and took a couple of digital photos, the Hardinge mill has the bracket that held the actuator at the back of the slide now holding a 1/2" brass bar that supports tubes being cut. The Rouse mill has the rest of the hardware sitting in front as well as the old fixture with a bushing for larger screws.
RouseMillWHardwareRS.jpgTubeMillRS.jpg
 








 
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