Hardinge HLV voltage conversion question

mtlhe · Apr 18, 2018

Found a HLV but it is 440v. What is all involved in switching it to 220/240v? A motor for sure, that's pretty easy. I'm thinking the control voltage is 120v? Therefore the motor itself would be the only thing that uses the 440v. Or is there more to it? FYI, I don't want to have to get a step up transformer to run this. I would rather just change the motor and whatever else if it isn't a massive undertaking. Thanks for the help advise.

thermite · Apr 19, 2018

mtlhe said:
Found a HLV but it is 440v. What is all involved in switching it to 220/240v? A motor for sure, that's pretty easy. I'm thinking the control voltage is 120v? Therefore the motor itself would be the only thing that uses the 440v. Or is there more to it? FYI, I don't want to have to get a step up transformer to run this. I would rather just change the motor and whatever else if it isn't a massive undertaking. Thanks for the help advise.

ISTR PM had a thread on that same challenge, which drew in OTHER ones, same issue, and (from memory..) the solution was NOT a motor change. There were some very good reasons to keep the OEM motor and use a transformer.

The motor doesn't draw much power, so the transformer wasn't huge, nor costly.

That left everything else in the same state as when last run, so was also a fast and simple solution.

IOW - a motor change turned out to be the LESS desirable approach, overall.

Heading off for a nap meself. You might want to search for that thread and review the hows, whys, and why-nots it covered..

rons · Apr 19, 2018

mtlhe said:
Found a HLV but it is 440v. What is all involved in switching it to 220/240v? A motor for sure, that's pretty easy. I'm thinking the control voltage is 120v? Therefore the motor itself would be the only thing that uses the 440v. Or is there more to it? FYI, I don't want to have to get a step up transformer to run this. I would rather just change the motor and whatever else if it isn't a massive undertaking.

Question: Do you have 220 3 phase of some sort now? So by a "step-up transformer" you mean a 3 phase type?

There is more to it:
- The motor overload heaters would have to be changed. There would be 2.
- Is the existing motor 440V 2 speed? I think it is. Do you intend to replace it with a 220V 2 speed?
- Think about a VFD to provide the 440V.
- Check the control transformer to be sure that it's secondary is 120V.

This fellow has his shit together. His HLV rebuild project.

Rebuilding a Hardinge HLV Toolroom Lathe

mtlhe · Apr 19, 2018

Thank you guys, I first searched with no results but in the last couple hours i managed to to find a couple threads.
Yes I currently use a phase perfect phase converter which provides 3phase 245v throughout my shop. I will have to go back to the lathe and investigate the motor and control transformer(s).
I will read the read you posted also, thanks again. Finally found a HLV a can afford but it had to be the wrong damn voltage.

thermite · Apr 19, 2018

Car2 has it nailed. Use an RPC.

One might consider use of a 440 VAC Idler so the transformer could be a 1-P 220 <=> 440 one on the input side of it. There are both pro and con to that vs a 220-440 3-P on the output.

Either way, you probably don't want this on your Phase-Perfect.

Both my older "blue case" 10 HP and new "white case" 10 HP are firm in the manual that if a transformer is to be put onto the P-P output, it must be Delta, P-P side, Wye load side.

That might complicate your environment for all other loads. Best to give the Hardinge its own path from utility mains to its needs.

rons · Apr 19, 2018

mtlhe said:
Found a HLV but it is 440v.

As I suggested before, you can use a 240V single phase in to 440V three phase out VFD. Set the output on the VFD to 60Hz and leave it. All the existing lathe controls will function as they should.

Forum member who has earned his Hardinge End User Certificate.

thermite · Apr 19, 2018

rons said:
You can use a 240V/440V VFD. Set the output to 60Hz and leave it. All the existing lathe controls will function as they should.

??

And the check is in the mail. The VFD won't exchange bodily fluids with the controls. The VFD won't molest the motor bearings. The VFD is from the Government and is here to help. The VFD's parents were hippies, three motors in ménage à trois won't offend its sensors...

If one of your pet antiques? VFD may even be old enough to vote.

Also WISE enough to say "this just ain't my bag!", ever it displaces you at the keyboard.

Until then... grains of salt are cheap enough of a season it ain't going onto the roads by the megaton.

rons · Apr 19, 2018

mtlhe said:
Found a HLV but it is 440v.

Thanks for the help advise.

I forgot to mention that you can use a 240V three phase in to 400V three phase out VFD.

A neighbor of yours would tell you to use advice instead, LOL

thermite · Apr 19, 2018

rons said:
I forgot to mention that you can use a 240V three phase in to 400V three phase out VFD.

A neighbor of yours would tell you to use advice instead, LOL

He can even "use" herbal medicines, Tolnaftate, or K-Y Jelly if he needs those and cares to do.

Simple RPC and transformer will make his Hardinge happier. Those are not noted for doing drugs or brothel creeping.

rons · Apr 20, 2018

mtlhe said:
Yes I currently use a phase perfect phase converter which provides 3phase 245v throughout my shop. I will have to go back to the lathe and investigate the motor and control transformer(s).

Your only choices would be:
- Three phase transformer
- VFD - A 2 or 3 HP model
- RPC - Needs a 440V idler motor and deal with the controls for it.
- Rework internals

mtlhe said:
Finally found a HLV a can afford but it had to be the wrong damn voltage.

The high voltage HLV's are not as desirable due to obvious reasons. Thus the lower price.

thermite · Apr 20, 2018

rons said:
Your only choices would be:
- Three phase transformer

One may. It is not an "only". A 1-P transformer 220 <=> 440 into a 440 idler works, too.

- VFD - A 2 or 3 HP model

Not "A". Possibly THREE. He has more than one load motor. Not economically attractive, accordingly. Potential future maintenance headache, if not also problematic at initial installation and commissioning.

MAJOR revision of the controls. ALL of them, or near-as-dammit as well, VFD require. Why go there, when one need not?

- RPC - Needs a 440V idler motor and deal with the controls for it.

A 220 VAC idler on the utility main side of a 220 <=> 440 3-P step-up transformer works also. It could be the preferred solution, depending on what current costs of the major components are. Use of an RPC also means little or no alteration to the controls. Avoidance of controls being assigned to the generated leg is the key. Not at all hard. Not, in fact, any form of disaster, if it DID occur. The "generated" leg is just not so imperfect as all that. The controls draw very little power.

- Rework internals

Last place "winner" due to use of dual-speed final-drive motor, OTHER 440 VAC 3-P motors, plus Hardinge intensive optimizations, whole "system". That level of "goodness" is a significant part of what makes a Hardinge desireable. It would be counter-productive to piss it away.

This is not news, here. It has been covered on other 440 V Hardinge. It is not that hard.

rons · Apr 20, 2018

mtlhe said:
Finally found a HLV a can afford but it had to be the wrong damn voltage.

If you like the condition of the machine then use a transformer. It can be easily tucked behind the cabinet.

I have seen 220v machines that don't look too good.

thermite · Apr 20, 2018

rons said:
If you like the condition of the machine then use a transformer. It can be easily tucked behind the cabinet.

I have seen 220v machines that don't look too good.

I have seen ..... reason to wonder if you need checked for Alzheimers.. before you recycle this entire thread each day..... forever.

rons · Apr 21, 2018

mtlhe said:
Found a HLV but it is 440v.

mtlhe, any progress? When I was working on my stuff I contacted cspark and exchanged some ideas. He might be able to give you a suggestion.

JRIowa · Apr 21, 2018

rons said:
you can use a 240V single phase in to 440V three phase out VFD.

Never seen such an animal. Link please.
What the OP can do is find a single phase 220 to 440 transformer and there are 440 single phase input VFDs. There have been several other posts where guys have done that.
JR

JRIowa · Apr 21, 2018

Go away Bill

There have been several threads in the VFD section concerning this, It has been done with VFDs, although it might not be the best choice, it is very doable.
JR

rons · Apr 21, 2018

JRIowa said:
Never seen such an animal. Link please.
What the OP can do is find a single phase 220 to 440 transformer and there are 440 single phase input VFDs. There have been several other posts where guys have done that.
JR

The transformer idea is not to his liking... These are close enough.
Post #1 does not say if the line frequency is 50Hz or 60Hz. A usual lack of information. I suspect his lathe name plate has a line voltage for 50Hz.

Great deals from Drives Direct Inverters LTD in DIGITAL-24-TO-415-INVERTERS- | eBay Shops

rons · Apr 23, 2018

JRIowa said:
Go away Bill

Where did you have in mind? A hot resting place? God forbid...

Hardinge HLV voltage conversion question

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