Hardinge Lathe questions

pntr815 · Sep 5, 2017

Hello all....
Where to begin....So, I'm looking for a Hardinge lathe that is NOT a dedicated second operation turret lathe like a DSM-59 but instead I need one that WILL accept the turret attachment. The reason being is that I need to use one lathe for multiple applications like threading (so I need a lead screw) and I need the cross feed as well. Also, I'd like to set it up with 5C collets (I need a center bore of 1.375). Question 1: Is the standard outside diameter of a 5C collet draw bar? Is it in fact 1.375? Question 2: Assuming the collet draw bar OD is 1.375 does Hardinge make a lathe with that bore diameter through the head stock? Question 3: Are the Hardinge turrets set up for a 9 inch lathe? A 12 inch lathe? Or are they available for pretty much any lathe? Question 4: Typically speaking on a 12 inch lathe are the dimensions across the ways pretty much the same? For instance; would a turret for a 12 inch Hardinge fit across the ways for say, a 12 inch Clausing? Weird questions huh? Thanks for any assistance you can provide.
V.

FredC · Sep 5, 2017

On an HLV-H tool room lathe the largest diameter through the spindle will be 1.249 if you remove the key.
You will probably need to look else where to meet all your needs. With shop made adapters the DSM turret could be fit to other lathes.

L Vanice · Sep 5, 2017

If you need 1.38" through the bore, you do not want a Hardinge lathe. The Hardinge lathes that take 5C collets have a 1.25" minimum bore, which is the body diameter of a 5C collet. The rest of the spindle bore is around 1.4" to pass the draw bar. Even then, you would have to remove the collet key from the spindle to get a 1.25" bar through the spindle.

Hardinge turrets fit only Hardinge lathes and come in three kinds: 7" split bed, 9" split bed and 9" dovetail bed. There is no Hardinge 12" lathe. There were some Taiwan copies of the Hardinge 9" dovetail bed lathes that probably let you mix a Taiwan turret on a Hardinge DV59 or DSM59 lathe.

The only way you could have a Hardinge lathe with lead screw threading and be able to use a turret is to get a circa 1950 Hardinge TL lathe and the turret for a circa 1940 ESM59 (9" split bed) lathe. You are not likely to find one, and you would still have the 1.25" spindle bore. And there would be no room to fit an ESM59 lever cross slide.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/hardingetl/ has pictures of the TL, which is a rare machine and usually worn out when found.

The model C29 bed adapter for a 7" bed is only 5" wide, and was not meant for a turret. It was meant to adapt lever cross slides, radius attachments and slide rests to the Hardinge HC lathes.

Larry

jim rozen · Sep 5, 2017

The closest machine that fits all your requirements is a southbend 10L with a bed turret.

sfriedberg · Sep 5, 2017

Well, there is another option, and that's the Hardinge HC with threading attachment. Completely different style of turret, of course. Can't turn between centers without a bodge, but you can thread reasonable lengths (2.5 inches) with the threading attachment, or use a die head for longer threads. Cross-feeds to face, no problem. In fact, with the automatic variant of threading attachment, it can be a job monster for the right jobs. The HC still has the 5C spindle bore limitation, though.

pntr815 · Sep 5, 2017

PRECISELY the kind of information I'm trying to find. Thanks VERY much for all the expertise guys. Anyone else have anything to add please fire away.

Derek Smalls · Sep 5, 2017

Plenty of options. Your needs, cost, and availability will dictate which option is best for you, but it sounds like Hardinge will not likely be the best, and certainly not cheapest, option for your situation though.
SB 10L with a bed turret may do, many other makers to choose from as well. Any decent "engine" lathe that you can find a turret for should do nicely. Clausing 5900 comes to mind as a great option. Turrets are usually available on ebay, the machines are pretty plentiful, and pretty well made as well. Nice range of RPM, and 5c collets are no problem with a spindle adapter.
Other direction is a small "turret" lathe that can thread. I know first hand the larger W&S's can be set up to thread (short lengths at least), I believe the small ones, like a #1 can as well.

jim rozen · Sep 5, 2017

HC has no lead screw - and no modern hardinge machine has a 1-3/8 inch ID spindle.
So right there, hardinge is ruled out.

Hodge · Sep 5, 2017

10ee monarch possibly

pntr815 · Sep 6, 2017

Ok....awesome information. Let me throw this wrinkle in. I have an opportunity to buy a Victor/Hardinge but would I be buying a Victor machine or a Hardinge machine? I'm kind of confused about this whole Victor/Feeler/Hardinge relationship.

L Vanice · Sep 6, 2017

As I mentioned before, there were/are copies of Hardinge lathes made in Taiwan. Victor and Feeler are two examples, but there are others. If someone says it is a Victor/Hardinge, they mean it is a Victor Taiwan copy of a Hardinge, but you also want to know the model they copied.

The relationship is that the Taiwan makers copied Hardinge machines, the HC, DSM59 and HLV-H, and sold them for less than the price of a Hardinge. Around 1984, I bought a new Feeler vertical cutoff attachment for their DSM59 copy and adapted it to fit my Hardinge ESM59 lathe. The Feeler unit is perfectly good quality and made a lot of parts.

Here is some information on Feeler. http://www.lathes.co.uk/feeler/

Larry

pntr815 · Sep 6, 2017

Larry......you Sir, are a friggin wealth of information, man. Thanks. The machine I was looking at is a Victor 618EM which apparently is the knock off of a Hardinge HLV. The company who is selling this thing wants 8 grand for it. I've looked on Ebay and can't really find anything like it other than one 618EM that looks like it was rode hard and put away wet and they want $9500 for IT. Hell...this is the link to the machine: Victor 618-EM Hardinge Type Super Precision Tool Room Lathe, VGC - tools - by owner - sale In your opinion are these knock-offs worth big bucks like this or regardless of how pretty it is.....it's still Taiwanese crap.

TDegenhart · Sep 6, 2017

I've had a Victor 618 EM for 3 years and have been pleased with its performance. I have not used a true Hardinge so I have no way of comparison, only that the oddities of the hardinge are in the Victor.

Tom

pntr815 · Sep 6, 2017

Hi Tom, what do you mean when you say, "the oddities of the hardinge are in the Victor?"

L Vanice · Sep 6, 2017

pntr815 said:
Hi Tom, what do you mean when you say, "the oddities of the hardinge are in the Victor?"

Some of the features of the HLV-H lathe go back to designs patented by Hardinge over 100 years ago. The patents are long expired, but were seldom used in other brands of lathe. The Taiwan copies are exact, so they also have those features. For example, the tapered spindle nose and the retracting compound slide come to mind. Odd is not the same as bad.

Larry

TDegenhart · Sep 6, 2017

What I was referring to is that on both machines the dials are big enough that you cannot just swing the compound from one side to the other. The dials interfere, particularly on the EM version. Other problems are the cam lock rod of the compound and the cam lock 4* spindle. A person used the lathe that did not have the chuck full snugged in place. When he reversed the spindle, the chuck landed on the bed and put a nasty ding in it.

Tom

pntr815 · Sep 6, 2017

Ahh....ok. I see what you mean. Yeah, odd doesn't necessarily mean bad. Thanks for the clarification.

pntr815 · Sep 6, 2017

Let me ask you this, guys......if you had to rate the quality of this Victor/Hardinge copy against the real Hardinge itself, would you rate it as 90% of the original? 75%? 50%? Or did the Taiwanese knock it out of the park and create a fantabulous Hardinge clone? I know this is a highly subjective question but I'm trying to gauge whether or not this machine is worth 8 grand when there are a bundle of South Bends 10L's out there that may be as good (for my purposes) at half the price.

TDegenhart · Sep 6, 2017

Can't answer for the true HVL-H, but I have both the Victor and a heavy ten in good condition. I rarely use the SB. It was my main machine until the Victor showed up.

Tom

Davis In SC · Sep 6, 2017

pntr815 said:
Let me ask you this, guys......if you had to rate the quality of this Victor/Hardinge copy against the real Hardinge itself, would you rate it as 90% of the original? 75%? 50%? Or did the Taiwanese knock it out of the park and create a fantabulous Hardinge clone? I know this is a highly subjective question but I'm trying to gauge whether or not this machine is worth 8 grand when there are a bundle of South Bends 10L's out there that may be as good (for my purposes) at half the price.

Back in 1993, I bought a new Hardinge HLV-DR. A person I knew had an almost new copy from Taiwan, Feeler, IIRC. I tried it out.. At the time, I would rate it at 60 to 70% of the performance of the new Hardinge.. Knowing what I know from the comparison...... I would not hesitate to buy a used Feeler or Victor copy, at the right price.

Hardinge Lathe questions

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