Just bought a Hardinge ESM-59 lathe; questions about tooling up

I bought a Hardinge ESM-59 last week, and will be picking it up next weekend. I bought it without being able to inspect or run it, but the price was low enough that I'm viewing it as a learning experience for buying the next one if it turns out to be a real dog.



I'm a one man shop, and make a few products that I sell. My runs are usually around 100-200 pieces at a time, so I think a turret lathe will be a nice change from the 9" South Bend that I currently use for everything. As a quick first question, can I expect the Hardinge to be a little bit more rigid than the South Bend, or are they comparable in that respect?

My main questions are about tooling. Other than maybe some 5C collets, it doesn't come with much more than what is shown in the picture above. I did buy a Hardinge TT tapping head with some collets on eBay, and am trying to decide what I need next. I have never run a turret lathe before; I've watched what videos I could find, and read what I can, but there are huge empty spaces on the tiny canvas that is my knowledge. I'll ask a couple of questions today to get started.

One of the parts I make is a bolt. It's a simple one, made from brass or bronze round stock. The starting diameter ranges from 7/16" to 3/4". The shank is about 1" long, with about 3/4" of 8-32 thread (I already have a Geometric die head for that step).

For cutting the shank, I've found a few different options, but have no idea if there is one that is clearly best for this purpose. The first is a hollow mill (the one that looks like an annular cutter). The second is an adjustable hollow mill such as a Kutmore. The last choice I've found is a box cutter. Would I be able to set the rollers to follow the 0.170" diameter shank and use that setup for all of the bolts, or would I need to set it to the starting diameter? If the latter, should I get a box cutter for each starting diameter and leave it set for that size, or are the rollers easy to adjust to the different starting diameters?

Does anyone have multiple turrets that they use on the same lathe? All of the parts I make are recurring on a regular basis, and I have thought of picking up extra turret assemblies and leaving them set up for certain parts. Is that reasonable, or is swapping turrets out more involved than I am imagining and not worth doing? Alternatively, what about just buying extra hex turrets? Those would take up less storage space and they'd be easier to move around. Is it simply a matter of unbolting one hex turret and replacing it with another, or is there fitting and adjustment involved that makes this unpractical?

I'll stop here for now. Take it easy on this newbie, but please let me know if there is more information that I could provide to get a better answer. Thanks for your time!

Isaac

Just a couple of things, I will leave some for others to comment on. Do not use drill chucks. I had a couple that came with the turret lathe I bought and never use them. For holding drills use Brookfield or Somma adjustable V block tool holders. I have a Cutmore hollow mill. It works good sometimes, but on material with long stringy chips they will pack up and make the tool useless. The Brown & Sharpe adjustable hollow mill is a lot more flexible. You can use all 4 blades or just 2 with long chipping materials. I have found my box tool takes a little while to set up, when using a tangent tool set the blade 1/10 of the stock diameter below center per Machinery's hand book.
You will need to buy or build another cross slide form tool holder if the machine will be received as pictured. An overhead cut off would be a necessity for me, maybe not for every one. I seldom use my turret lathe for anything but one dedicated job anymore, but when I did use it I wanted enough tools in the machine to make the part as finished as possible in one operation. Each rechucking is room for mistakes.
CHNC CNC lathes had provisions for multiple turret plates never heard of such on a manual turret lathe. setting the bearings and turret lock maybe a daunting task. If you had a second turret it would need to be bored in place on the machine to make the holes concentric to the main spindle. I would not like to do that.
If the parts are your own product make more of them each time you set up. Material is cheap compared with set up costs. I use to make 10K or 20K parts at a time.
Get a Somma catalog it will give you a lot of ideas and know how even if you never buy any of their tools.
For collets that you will use frequently buy Hardinge, a poor collet can be the source of lots of frustration.

Isaac S said:

My main questions are about tooling.

Click to expand...

Have a look at this thread.

The starting diameter ranges from 7/16" to 3/4". The shank is about 1" long, with about 3/4" of 8-32 thread (I already have a Geometric die head for that step).

For cutting the shank, I've found a few different options, but have no idea if there is one that is clearly best for this purpose. The first is a hollow mill (the one that looks like an annular cutter). The second is an adjustable hollow mill such as a Kutmore. The last choice I've found is a box cutter. Would I be able to set the rollers to follow the 0.170" diameter shank and use that setup for all of the bolts, or would I need to set it to the starting diameter? If the latter, should I get a box cutter for each starting diameter and leave it set for that size, or are the rollers easy to adjust to the different starting diameters?

Click to expand...

On a roller box tool, the rollers are typically set to the finished/cut size, axially just behind the edge of the cutter. Please note that with the limited bore on hollow 5/8" tool shanks, cuts with a roller box tool will be limited in either length or diameter. 0.170" finished should pass into the hollow shank OK. You may have to choose a different type of tool to cut similar parts of larger diameter or substantially greater length (more than, say, 3"). In addition to the other type of tools you've already mentioned, this might be an OK job for a stiff knee tool, or perhaps a roughing/finishing sequence of same.

I've used Genesee adjustable hollow mills, but not Kutmore. They do work, but you need to follow the instructions for setting them up correctly, which includes a specific interaction between blade grinding/sharpening and positioning. That is especially true for the hollow mills with blades at a skew to the work axis. I think I would do a roughing pass with something else before finishing with an adjustable hollow mill.

Does anyone have multiple turrets that they use on the same lathe?

Click to expand...

This is common on gang lathes (linear tool block), not unheard of for Hardinge HC chuckers (flat tool plate), but pretty much unknown for Hardinge ESM/DSM machines. Given the going price and scarcity for ESM turret rams, I don't think it would be cost-effective.

The solution is to practice your setups (and make a bunch of learning mistakes) so it doesn't take more than a half-dozen sacrificial blanks to get a new setup installed from scratch.

Looking closely at your photo, it seems the former owner (or you perhaps) have set up drills the exact same
way that the former owner of my ESM-59 did.

Basically a piece of 5/8 diameter stock with the drill setscrewed into the end. I got a bunch of different
types of drills and centerdrills with the machine when I bought it.

But then it also came with a bunch of newish jacobs chucks on 5/8 inch stubs. I think the idea is the chucks
take up a LOT of room and get in the way of tool changes.

For now just learn to use the tools you have, don't buy extras you don't need right now to do a job. I'd
probably steer away from a complete spare turret. You probably realize this now, but turrets take up a fair
amount of room. I'm currently storing an ESM turret (typically the lathe is run with a toolmakers compound) and
also a southbend 10L bed turret, which is a real beast to move around.

Thanks for the response, guys. I'm starting to get really excited about what I'll be able to do with this lathe.



Fred, thanks for the info on the hollow mills. I'm looking into those a bit more.

I hadn't seen the vertical slide cutoff before, but it looks like that will land near the top of my wanted list.

I hadn't started thinking about drill chucks yet. What about drill bushings - I'm thinking about clamping a 5/8" bushing in the turret, then drilling (and maybe boring) for the drill shank while in place. If I mark the turret location and position on the bushing, I'm hoping that repeatability will be pretty good.

I've downloaded the Somma catalog and started reading through it. I have a lot of learning ahead of me!

You and sfriedberg and Jim have convinced me to abandon the thought of getting extra turrets, at least for now. Besides the storage space they'd eat up, the money is going to be better spent on other tool holders. There's going to be plenty of those.




sfriedberg, thanks for the advice on the box tools. I might start off with a roughing pass using a knee tool, then finishing up with a hollow mill like the one below. I should be able to make a custom one out of O1 that will hold up well enough for brass.







Jim, those pictures are from the former owner; I haven't picked this up yet. I like the idea of using bushings for the drill bits. Simple, a lot cheaper, and much less overhang. From my reading, it seems like overhang can be bad because you have limited turret travel to work with.

I do have a turret off of a South Bend lathe, and you're right about it not being real easy to move around. I have about a dozen different parts that I think I can make on this lathe, so I think my money will be better spent on tooling that will give me more flexibility than additional turrets.

I bought this machine years ago, because I simply could not at the price and condition:









You're right, it seems like no matter how big a turret lathe is (and these are small) you just
never have enough clearance or travel to go around. Mostly this machine is set up as
a bench lathe:

I posted lots of pictures on the thread linked in post #3.

For drills I prefer the Brookfield DA-10 V block holder.
You can adjust it for any drill up to 1/2".
It is easy to set it up on center, even if the holes on the tunrret are not on center.

I have resorted to making my own tools when I can't find something suitable on the used market. I find it more time effective than looking for scarce tools.

For turning tools for the turret, I use Hardinge T-3, T-4, And DSM-1.

For your larger diameter parts I would start with the T-4 and take a 1/8" depth of cut for a starter, then use the T-3 to turn to .010" to .025" above final diameter. Then use the DSM-1 to finish.

I have a picture in the link on post #3 that shows the B&S 200 hollow mill that I have made new blades for, to chamfer the end of the part and face to length with one tool.

For your job, 6 turret tools: stock stop, 3 turn tools, thread, end form.

I normally use a rear mounted cutoff, and front mounted tools to face and chamfer the part. If front and back are needed for grooves etc. then the vertical cutoff is used.

I use a chunk of dowel rod or similar, with a suitable hole drilled in it to support the part as it is cutoff, this prevents damage from a spinning part flying and hitting a sharp edge putting dings in the part. And protects fingers from hot parts and spinning burrs.

For your stock stop, be sure to center drill the end to allow the cutoff nub to enter when advancing the bar.

I just manually pull the bar by hand. I use only 2 spindle liners. One for stock up to 1/2", and the other is made from a chunk of 3/4" EMT conduit for a bit over 3/4".
The liners project about 4" from the spindle to support 2' bars on all but the smallest sizes.

Bill

sfreidberg mentioned sacrificial blanks. Not sure if this is what he meant.
I finished the last part on a job then partially cut it off. Next time the job came up I would set all the tools against that blank. Then just dial the adjustments in till you get a good part the next time. This works on a screw machine or turret lathe.
On the V block drill holders Brookfield are more nicely finished than Somma, but the Somma shanks are one piece and probably a bit stronger. so you pick your poison, or maybe get a couple of each.
Photo of the Kutmore hollow mill and B&S. Had to take the Kutmore apart and drill the chips out. The operator made a couple too many parts with it packed up. The B&S has 2 steadies included as well as the 4 blades. I ran it last time with just 2 blades to keep from packing with chips.

I agree with everyone on the drill chucks statement. They seem nice but a lot of times they get in the way. I went the route of using drill chucks because I thought it was a better route, but it's not for most stuff. I have a little hand lever turning slide on my lathe and it works fine for turning but a knee tool or box tool would work better. Also once you get a vertical slide you don't know how people use a turret lathe without one. Very handy tool to have. The setup part is also a very smart idea. I've never done this because my parts are so simple, but I should have. I used to keep a bar of drill rod to make into tools in a pinch. They work really well too. Hope your turret lathe adventure goes well, your making me want to go make parts on mine.

Ah, the vertical cut-off.

Those things are AMAZING.

Anyone who complains about running a cut-off tool in a manual lathe, should try one of those.

Frees up a cross slide spot and works so well.

jim rozen said:

Ah, the vertical cut-off.

Those things are AMAZING.

Anyone who complains about running a cut-off tool in a manual lathe, should try one of those.

Frees up a cross slide spot and works so well.

Click to expand...

I wanted one back in 1983 for my ESM-59 when I was doing turret work and needed to use the rear of the lever cross slide for my skiving tool. I could not find one that fit, and have never yet found one that fit the ESM. I bought a new one for the 1960 model dovetail bed DSM-59. (That was before eBay.) The headstock bearing housing diameter fit the recess OK, but I had to slot the three mounting screw holes in the vertical cutoff frame. It did indeed work very well.

Larry

I tend to use a rear mounted cutoff tool for the following reasons:

1. I can set the amount of stock left after cutoff.
2. I am using carbide inserts with chip control shapes, more and more, and have several holders on square shanks that fit the holder that I made. Pix in the other thread. Changing a dull insert is quick and does not require adjustments of the cutoff tool.
3. I make oval head screws and grind the Side of the T type cutoff tool for the desired shape of the head.
4. The center height can be set with the tool preset gage after changing blades.


And yes, the vertical cutoff works well, I made a 3/4" spacer to give more length to the cutoff stub in the collet. A 2' length of 3/4 - 1" pulls hard and these old fingers need a bit more room to get a hold of. And for very busy setups, gets the tooling blocks further away from the spindle.

A last tid bit not mentioned yet: keep setup sheets for each job you run, update them as you learn better processes and acquire additional tooling.
You will find that little changes to the process can really impact job run time! And the problems in running a given setup gradually decrease.

Keeping a job box with setup stubs, special tools, setup parts to set the Geometric head for correct thread size, along with a copy of the setup sheet.

Bill

L Vanice said:

I wanted one back in 1983 for my ESM-59 when I was doing turret work and needed to use the rear of the lever cross slide for my skiving tool. I could not find one that fit, and have never yet found one that fit the ESM. I bought a new one for the 1960 model dovetail bed DSM-59. (That was before eBay.) The headstock bearing housing diameter fit the recess OK, but I had to slot the three mounting screw holes in the vertical cutoff frame. It did indeed work very well.

Larry

Click to expand...

Ah. So there are at least TWO ESMs in the world, that have cut-offs with slotted holes! Only way I could make the darn thing fit.

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the time you've all taken so far to help me understand this machine a little more. There's a lot for me to pick up, but you've significantly flattened the learning curve and saved me many false starts. I've made it through about 70 pages of posts on this forum, reading anything that looks like it might pertain to this lathe. That's been a great help, too.

sfriedberg, that's an impressive collection of tooling you showed in the other post.

Bill, thanks for the advice. I like the hollow mill you showed in that other post, and filed it away for use at some time in the future. The job box and setup sheets are great reminders. I finally started keeping boxes for some of my parts, and I can't believe how helpful that's been. I only wish I'd heard of that idea earlier, rather than figuring it out after much frustration and time spent looking for the right tools for each job.

Fred, those blanks from each job are a great idea. I'll definitely implement that when I start making parts.

If anyone else out there is trying to learn how all of these tools work, this Brown & Sharpe page has been very helpful for me.

Photos of tools I made or modified:

A V supported form tool to form the end of long slender work, before threading in this case.
Note that the V is split, easier to grind, and allows for precise adjustment to the work.


A B&S roller box tool converted to ball bearings that turned the above screw;


2 views of the Brookfield DA-10 V block tool holder.

More pix of tools.
The first is a modified B&S Hollow mill with blades to face to length, and chfr ID & OD.
The second is a modified T type cutoff blade to form the head of a screw.
Also shown is the pick off made from a piece of fiber to hold the screw till it is completely cut off.
The setup slug for the screw shown below. I can't change the order of the photos.



The third is a smaller version of the Hardinge D6 for very busy setups where turret tools hit the tools on the slide.
I have already made a 3/4" spacer for the Vert. cutoff to allow the D6 to be closer to the spindle.
For the rear mounted cutoffs, I needed to modify the block I made to get clearance.
See the last 2 pix in the next post.


The last is the gang tool holder for the taper attachment.
See last photo in next post to see it in action.

The rear mounted cutoff tools. See post #12 above for more info.

The first is an empire tool


2 shots of a square shank cutoff in a holder I made.



Note Here depending on the job, I use either the rear mount cutoff (above) or the Vert. cutoff attachment (below), note the extension block on it.
This was a very busy setup that made the long screw in the first photo of post #15. The part passed between the rollers on the box tool during index.

I'm in love with this lathe. It took me a year or two to realize that I was outgrowing my South Bend 9A; if I had known earlier just what a step up this Hardinge lathe is for me, I would have taken the leap long ago.

I've amassed a bit of tooling over the last several months to get started with. Thanks to Larry, I now have a vertical slide...what a treat that is to use! I also rewired it to run off of a VFD. I thought of trying to retain the functionality of the levers, but in the end decided to put all of the controls in a box mounted to the headstock. I like that, so far. Besides on and off buttons, there is a reversing switch, a jog/run switch, and a speed control.


VFD box mounted on side of lathe base



Switch box mounted on headstock


I have about a dozen different parts in line to make on the lathe, and will tackle them in order of increasing difficulty. The first one is about as simple as it gets - in this step, I'm just facing off the end, then putting a chamfer on the front and back end before parting it off. I didn't intend to finish them all last night, but once I got this setup running, I was just too excited to quit and ended up making all 300 of them.


Setup for simple part

Nice work, Isaac. Hardinge made tool holders for both front and back that can hold several 3/8" shank bits. With one of those, you can do the face and both chamfers with just the front station of the lever cross slide, saving a few seconds of time.

When you manually pull the bar out of the collet, you could just pull it slightly past the facing tool and not need to use the turret for locating, again saving a few seconds. The seconds add up when making hundreds of parts. Each second saves 5 minutes on 300 parts. Cutting twelve seconds saves an hour. Time is money, even when you are having fun.

Larry

Thanks for the suggestions, Larry. I'll have to practice eyeballing the end of the bar. It seemed like most times I'd either pull it out way too far, or just a hair short.

Those multiple tool holders are now on my radar. I found a catalog for the DSM-A, which has been a great reference for buying turret tooling. Unfortunately, the cross-slide tooling is different, so I can't use those part numbers to look for that tooling. What is the height of the tool base that the D6 and D7 sit on?