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Old Hardinge horizontal mill

wallcleo

Plastic
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Location
North East USA
Gentlemen, Just bought an old Hardinge Horizontal TM mill and noticed only after transaction that the arbor driver was missing (yea, big mistake). This is part no. 4692 in 1956 parts list. Arbor is very tight in seat do to draw bar but my guess is that I will not want to take big cuts without the driver. So.. looking to see if anyone knows one for sale. Any ideas?
 
Thanks Car2 Did some digging this morning and may have found someone who has driver but only with arbor as you suggested. Real nice guy. The arbor I have is 1" and he said he has one that is 7/8" with the drive. Works out well in that I can make a driver for the 1" arbor given the model and have both arbor sizes. Will also check the references you sited. Thanks for your reply!
 
Arbor support is there and was surprised that it is as free moving in the casting. Was expecting some trouble freeing it up, given the age of the machine it all looks in good shape. One thing is that someone replaced the cross feed wheel handle with a knob and ball and the newer plastic dial. Would like to get that replaced with the original metal dial and wheel.
 
The genuine Hardinge arbors have these identifying characteristics:

The keyway in the 5C shank is much wider than in a 5C collet so that it will clear the spindle key.
There is no keyway in the 7/8 or 1 inch diameter portion of the cutter arbor, even though most cutters have a keyway. Remember, the motor is only 3/8 HP low speed and 3/4 HP high speed.
There is a Woodruff keyway in the hub next to the conical portion of the 5C shank that engages the drive collar.

The collar is not a press fit on the arbor. It is held with a set screw that bears upon the Woodruff key and is free to slide into close engagement with the spindle notches when the set screw is loose.

I made a collar once. It required careful machining. I think broaching the keyway was the most difficult job. Standard broach bushings are too short, so I may have had to make a special bushing. It was years ago, and I don't recall all the details now.

Larry

Hardinge1in5CArbor&DriveCollar.jpgHardinge5CArborDriveCollar.jpgHardinge5CArborDriveCollarFront.jpgMill arbor 1 in 1.JPGMill arbor 7-8 in 1.JPG
 
Larry, Thanks for the pictures. They really help to understand what the driver is doing. I thought the driver might have been threaded on to the spindle as in the small Atlas mill, but could not figure how with the spindle pin and keyway. So the spindle thread is for...work holding?(!)
 
IMG_0805.JPGIMG_0804.jpgIMG_0806.JPGIMG_0807.jpg
Here are a few pictures of the mill. I didn't think about it much, I thought all TM machines had a threaded spindle. The threads are 10TPI on a 2.18 inch diameter. I can only think they are for a special chuck of some kind. Any ideas? Another difference from what I've seen is the single motor control with both direction and speed instead of two levers. I guess it must be an older machine. The serial number is 14647, I do not know where this puts it in age.
One queer thing I see is the key is at some angle to the spindle notches. I would have thought the designer would have put it either in line or 90 degrees from them and the same for the collet slot and pin. I hope everything is intact when I remove the arbor (there is still a pin) and I don't find a mess. I have to make a tool to loosen the drawbar as it is really tight and look at it this weekend.
Again guys, thanks for the help/ideas!
 
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So will try to get the arbor out this weekend. I plan to use a piece of schedule 40 pipe that fits over the keyed section of the arbor and rests on the spindle and then use a large diameter arbor spacer on the other end of the pipe so I can press the arbor out with the arbor nut. Before I do this I would really like to know/have the arbor key and 5C groove aligned properly with the spindle pin. Larry's photo shows the keyway and the groove aligned and I believe the keyway in the driver is at 90deg to the spindle notches. Mine is clearly not so...how to rotate the arbor back into position? The only thing I have to grab on to rotate is a key in the keyway. By the way, does anyone know what the set screw that is angle into the spindle is for? Oil?
 
So will try to get the arbor out this weekend. I plan to use a piece of schedule 40 pipe that fits over the keyed section of the arbor and rests on the spindle and then use a large diameter arbor spacer on the other end of the pipe so I can press the arbor out with the arbor nut. Before I do this I would really like to know/have the arbor key and 5C groove aligned properly with the spindle pin. Larry's photo shows the keyway and the groove aligned and I believe the keyway in the driver is at 90deg to the spindle notches. Mine is clearly not so...how to rotate the arbor back into position? The only thing I have to grab on to rotate is a key in the keyway. By the way, does anyone know what the set screw that is angle into the spindle is for? Oil?IMG_0816.jpgIMG_0816.jpg
 
Did you get the draw bar loosened from the back? If so did you try tapping on it? Also not all TM or UM have 3/8 - 3/4 HP motors. Mine came with a 1/2 - 1 Hp motor from the factory.

Mark
 
Wow, I have seem a number of these machines over the years, as well as a number of them in use at Hardinge when I worked there years ago, and none have ever had Threaded spindles. Must be an early pre-1960's design.
Also, all I have seen have the 2 handles for Hi/Lo and Fwd/Rev. That single handle is
a new one on me. What type of drive is it? Is it a Reeves type (Variable pitch pulleys like a Snowmobile)? Could you post a couple pics of the drive inside the lower cabinet?

FWIW, I just used mine today for about 20 minutes on a small job that was made simple with this machine. Would have been a PITA on any other, including my much larger and more bulky Van Norman No 2.
If averages hold true, I should need to use the machine about another 3-4 times this year. But it sure comes in handy and saves time when I need it.




 
Drawbar is loose, tapped from back to no avail. Good idea to check alignment from back, will do so tomorrow. Sounds like collet key is separate from spindle if angled set screw holds it in place. Can then be replaced if damaged? Will try to remove arbor with this set screw loose.

The machine seems to be from 1941. I will get some pictures of the drive on this post this weekend. Thanks to all for your interest and comments.
 
Also, all I have seen have the 2 handles for Hi/Lo and Fwd/Rev. That single handle is
a new one on me. What type of drive is it? Is it a Reeves type (Variable pitch pulleys like a Snowmobile)? Could you post a couple pics of the drive inside the lower cabinet?

Drive on this machine is the same as for the two-handle. If you look closely you can see two speeds in in each direction. Thus the one switch has four positions-2 forward and 2 reverse.
 
Here are the drive pulleys. They seem to be the same as on more modern machines. The motor is 3/4hp, I can't make out the name on the plate. Does anyone recognize it?
I got the arbor out without a problem (used a pipe over the arbor and the arbor nut). I removed the 1st set screw to allow the second some room to back against the threads and the arbor popped right out once the nut was tightened. As you can see no harm to the arbor or spindle. Only the set screw used to align the arbor in the the spindle has to be replaced. I can relax now and wait for the arbor driver to arrive!
IMG_0819.jpgIMG_0820.jpgIMG_0821.jpgIMG_0826.jpgIMG_0825.jpg
 
I added a reply to this post earlier today but do not see it so here goes again, sorry if this is repeated.
I took pictures of the drive if any are interested. The style seems the same as in the more modern machines with belts and four pulleys. The motor is 3/4hp 220V and I can not make out the brand. If someone recognizes the style of the nameplate please let me know.
I got the arbor out today using a pipe just larger than the arbor and used the arbor nut. Before applying force I backed off the locking set screw for the spindle "pin", applied some penetrant and when I turned the arbor nut the arbor pop right out. No damage to arbor or spindle from the worn down set screw "pin". Pictures to follow.
 

GENTLY rub the paint off, and find a 3/4 HP "Century Electric" motor. It may be a "geared head"- single speed, if not multiple.

Century, Lima, and Master brands, commonly with 1 fixed, else 2, 3, or even 4 selectable ratio integral gearboxes dominated small mills - all makes - in the days before DC Drives or VFD.

IIRC, Century & Lima merged, may later have been acquired by Master, which survives as part of ABB's Baldor-Reliance division, yet today.

AFAIK, the multi-speed type of motor in the 1/2 HP to 2 or 3 HP sizes small mills needed hasn't been made, new for several decades, though.

The cost of 'many' gears, long-serving low-hassle lube supply, and shifter mechanism simply became far too costly to produce vs a VFD+3-P motor, ELSE DC Drive+DC Motor.

They are also inordinately HEAVY bastids, so do have a care if you go to remove it as part of your overall refurb.

PS: Now that you have it unblocked, check your spindle bore against common 5C collets.

Hardinge had the bad, but 'handy', habit of using 5C for 'native' spindles on mills and lathes, even had some castings in early years that could be EITHER a horizontal mill spindle mount OR a lathe headstock.

I say 'bad' because a #7 B&S, or better-yet, #9 B&S taper had way to Hell and gone better grip, most especially if a milling cutter had serous pounding to do.

Absent hammering loads, a 5C is similar in grip to an R-8, neither of them quite a match for the #7 B&S.

OTOH, as said "handy" because 5C collets, round, square, hex, etc. are about as common as housefly poop, and not greatly more costly.

You'll have a far more nicely made mill than a crude, rude, and socially unacceptable Burke #4 El Cheapo, but the Burke had a #9 B&S spindle, could be had with up to 3 HP, and even at 1 HP would eat HALF the Hardinge mill's lunch.

I say 'half' because the silly Burke only had half the table size, half the travel, and half or LESS the Tee slots (ONE only, would you believe?)!

:D
 
Wow, I have seem a number of these machines over the years, as well as a number of them in use at Hardinge when I worked there years ago, and none have ever had Threaded spindles. Must be an early pre-1960's design.
Also, all I have seen have the 2 handles for Hi/Lo and Fwd/Rev. That single handle is
a new one on me. What type of drive is it? Is it a Reeves type (Variable pitch pulleys like a Snowmobile)? Could you post a couple pics of the drive inside the lower cabinet?

FWIW, I just used mine today for about 20 minutes on a small job that was made simple with this machine. Would have been a PITA on any other, including my much larger and more bulky Van Norman No 2.
If averages hold true, I should need to use the machine about another 3-4 times this year. But it sure comes in handy and saves time when I need it.

My 1964 TM has the threaded spindle and the single lever drum switch. My standard Hardinge 2 3/16-10 tooling only goes on the TM spindle about two turns. I don't need the threads, so I have not tried to make them fit.

The Hardinge two-lug drive collar on the 5C arbor is a lot more positive than a 9 B&S taper and a lot easier to remove from the spindle. Hardinge made 5C shell mill arbors and a 5C flycutter and Weldon made 5C end mill holders. They all are extremely hard to find. If you tighten the draw bar, a normal 5C collet or shank will not shear the key in the spindle, and the V-belt will slip before you can do much damage to anything if you have a wreck.

Wallcleo has a single speed (520 RPM?) motor, so it is not original to his mill, which has a 2-speed drum switch like mine. My TM has the original 220V 2-speed motor.

Larry

TM31418 1.JPGTM31418 2.JPG
 








 
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