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Split Bed Turret Drawings or Exploded Diagrams Available?

Spyderedge

Titanium
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Location
NY
I have a Hardinge 6 position turret for my plain bearing Cataract. It's missing all the ratchet mechanism and whatever bolt holds the turret onto the sliding ram.

Can any diagrams showing the missing parts be had? I'd like to try rebuilding what's there.

(Photos added for no reason except reader entertainment and reference.)

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I've never had one of the split-bed turrets apart, but I did a full photo breakdown of the dovetail bed Model L turret over in the Yahoo group for Hardinge lathes. That might help a bit. Or not. In the Model L, the bottom of the "bolt that holds the turret" has a bevel gear that rotates the travel stop wheel, and the bolt is also keyed to your missing ratchet.
 
I've never had one of the split-bed turrets apart, but I did a full photo breakdown of the dovetail bed Model L turret over in the Yahoo group for Hardinge lathes. That might help a bit. Or not. In the Model L, the bottom of the "bolt that holds the turret" has a bevel gear that rotates the travel stop wheel, and the bolt is also keyed to your missing ratchet.
I had no idea that group existed. I'll make a Yahoo account and check it out.

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In the Model L, the bottom of the "bolt that holds the turret" has a bevel gear that rotates the travel stop wheel, and the bolt is also keyed to your missing ratchet.
I need to correct myself. Bad memory, and a complicated design. In the Model L, the ratchet wheel is actually part of a cluster gear: ratchet, bevel gear that engages with the bevel gear at the bottom of "the bolt", and a second bevel gear that rotates the travel stop wheel (via a matching bevel on the travel stop shaft). Not practical to reproduce one-off as a single piece cluster without a shaper and a dividing head. Might be possible to reproduce as a three-piece assembly, but you'd still have to cut two custom bevel gears.

It's entirely possible that Hardinge built the split-bed turrets differently! As I said before, I've never had one of those apart.
 

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I dont think outs are identical inside, but probably pretty close. Mine is totally gutted, bo gears or anything inside. There is a ratchet pawl inside however, so maybe I can remake the ratchet wheel and cut some plastic gears on the scroll saw with a tilting table. They don't have to be super accurate or strong, since they just index the stop, right? I hear if you bevel the sides of the gear teeth by the pressure angle, you can approximate bevel gears with a decently smooth motion.

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Spyderedge,

I have a split bed turret like yours all apart right now. I intended to document putting it back together, but as usual haven't gotten to that yet. Too much other old iron to play with. :) I can show you the details of all the parts inside, and even get you dimensions. In the meantime, there was a thread over on the "Antique Machinery and History" forum about this turret that shows some of the inside details.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...bench-lathe-turret-not-fully-indexing-318151/

And this thread shows a parts diagram of this turret. There are probably other threads that show some info on these particular turret assemblies.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...parts-breakdown-hardinge-2nd-op-lathe-152885/

I have a spare bolt that holds the turret head on. And you're right, the gears just rotate the stop mechanism, so they aren't that important for the main operation.

Irby
 
Here are some photos of the ratcheting mechanism.

If you take the sliding ram off the body, you will see this. I've taken the bolts out that hold the rectangular cover.
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With the cover off, you see the 6 "star" ratchet wheel and the gears that transfer the rotation of the wheel to the turret head. I was wrong about the gears just turning the stop mechanism. These are special gears and the one with the "star" wheel also has a small bevel on the bottom that turns the stop mechanism. The end of the turret head has 4 pins that engage the gear on the left. There is a long bolt the holds the turret head to the left gear. I'll have to go photograph that bolt.
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The pawl that turns the "star" wheel is located on the side of the turret assembly body. It engages the wheel when the sliding ram is retracted, and rotates the turret head. A spring in the side of the body keeps the pawl in this position. This is a view from the top of the body.
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More photos to come...
Irby
 

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Woah, I wasn't expecting a response like that. Those pictures are EXACTLY what I need!

So I need three gears, and the indexing turret is actually driven by gears, not right off the ratchet wheel directly.

What is the reason for the different height pins on the bottom of the turret head? They are also spaced oddly.

Do you have any pictures of what that bolt looks like? For now, I might just make it manually rotating but try and gear the stop in as well.

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The 3 short pins just go into the gear. The odd spacing is probably for keying, but I don't really know. The longer pin extends through the gear and fits into a notch in the flat head of the bolt that holds the turret head on. It keeps the bolt from turning when a nut is tightened on the top. The bolt is also center drilled down from the top to an oil hole that goes out the side about half way down it's length. Here's the messed up bolt off my turret and the newer one I bought that is off an ESM version. It fits just fine. You can't really see the oil hole drilled from the end that is threaded.

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Irby
 

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Spyderedge,

I took some photos of the turret head locking system, but in looking at your photo of the underside of the turret assembly it seems a little different than the one I have. Mine is an Elgin version, which seems to be the same as a friend's Cataract version. The cover plate on mine -
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The ratchet pawl on mine looks different than something in roughly the same place on yours, indicated by the arrows (mine is on the right).
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A view of the ratchet pawl from the top side of the turret body.
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I'd like to see a photo of the ratchet pawl on yours. I took the turret slide off by removing the eight (4 on each side) long bolts that hold the clamping gibs in place. Then the entire slide can be lifted off.

Irby
 

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Wow, you're going above and beyond here!

I got your PM yesterday, but I was at work and didn't have time to respond. I started writing on short breaks then I lost it. You were asking what machines I had in order to fix a gear. I have a Bridgeport, South Bend lathe, and a DoAll surface grinder. Should be plenty for the repair, however the repair itself is going to be tricky.

I can't get photos of the turret pawl today, in swamped, but possibly tomorrow if I remember.

I wonder if our turrets are the same? Maybe Hardinge manufactured from Elgin or they were made by a different sister company?

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I think I found why your photo of the ratchet pawl looks different than mine. The pawl in your photo is rotated all the way around. If I rotate the pawl on my turret all the way around, it looks like this compared to your photo. Close enough. So our turret assemblies are probably close enough to each other in design for photos (and sketches with dimensions) of mine to show you what you are missing.

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Irby
 

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Yes, in that photo it is turned around so I could measure the amount of motion it had. Sorry I didn't answer that question earlier.

They have just over 4.25" of travel.

It's not a big deal if I don't have any sort if auto rotate mechanism, but I do need to make a turret bolt. There's no way around that!

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I'll start showing the parts your turret seems to be missing. There are 4 in this photo.
1) What I call a "retract stop" (since I don't know what Hardinge calls it). Has to do with retracting the turret head locking pin.
2) What I call a "retract arm". What actually retracts the turret head locking pin.
3) The strip of metal under the "retract stop" that is fastened to the slide, and is sloped on the front. I don't call it out in the photo.
4) The bolt and nut that screws into the gear cover and is an adjustable stop for the aft movement of the slide. It's just in front of the "retract arm" in the photo.
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The "retract stop" details are:
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Also, do you have the spring loaded plunger that bears against a flat on the shaft of the ratchet pawl? Here's a photo of the parts.
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Irby
 

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To continue -
What I call the "retract arm" fits into the side of the slide and on the top side engages a slot in the turret head locking pin.
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"Retract arm" details.
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Irby
 

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More -
The turret head locking pin is held engaged in each of the six position slots of the head by a spring loaded plunger.
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When putting the locking pin into the slide, that little hole you see in the pin is for keeping the plunger all the way in the pin so it's not fighting you putting the pin in place. You push the plunger in so the hole lines up with the turned-down groove in the plunger, and insert a wire (or small screw driver) into the hole, keeping the plunger all the way in.
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Irby
 

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Hi Irby, I dont seem to have any of the ratchet or locking mechanism besides the sliding tapered bar that indexes into the bottom of the turret. Everything else is missing.

I'm wondering if this was a parts turret for a bunch of others...

This turret is probably going to cost more to fix than to buy another. Do you have any ideas on how I could convert it to a manually rotating turret? Maybe rig up the locking bar to a bike brake cable with a foot pedal for quick hands-free locking/unlocking?

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I wonder if the missing parts were put in a container and lost.

There are just a few parts to make that do the locking. No gears involved. They could be made from some drill rod and a piece of 1/4" thick tool steel (or old leaf spring annealed), plus some springs from the hardware store. It appears they are all hardened. I could send you sketches of those parts. It may not be more time consuming than rigging a cable or something.

Irby
 
I wonder if the missing parts were put in a container and lost.

There are just a few parts to make that do the locking. No gears involved. They could be made from some drill rod and a piece of 1/4" thick tool steel (or old leaf spring annealed), plus some springs from the hardware store. It appears they are all hardened. I could send you sketches of those parts. It may not be more time consuming than rigging a cable or something.

Irby
If you wouldn't mind drawing some rough sketches that would be wonderful. I very much appreciate all your help!



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