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Anyone else fed up with HSMWorks?

csharp

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Sep 24, 2009
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PA
Anyone else fed up with HSMWorks? Just curious if anyone else feels like the product is basically abandoned? I mean it is really going as i should have expected, all efforts into Fusion and Inventor.

It is probably just me, but after using it since 2011 it is just painful to realize the thousands of dollar and countless hours basically thrown out. I should have just listened to my gut when Autodesk bought them and got the hell away.:bawling:

So will the actually kill them off officially or just wait until everyone either moves on to other products or transitions into Inventor or Fusion so they look blameless?
 
Funny, I sort of feel that way about Fusion 360 (specifically for Windows) having bought in after the CAM preview.

That said, go look at what CAMWorks changed for their 2015 "upgrade" and believe me, HSMWorks starts looking a lot nicer. We don't even have a simple 2-axis mill-turn post because every time our post guy tries he breaks something else, and therefor we are making some parts on two machines when they could be getting done on one, in a single setup (some very simple milling operations too, like flutes along the Z axis, a single axis move with X axis positioning ball mill operation).

As I understand it, most of your needs are in turning, and so I can see where HSMWorks has been a letdown. As we don't even have the full-blown HSMWorks package yet, I can't speak much to its lack of improvement, especially past the last six months.

I also have been following development for a while via discussions on this forum and the CAM forum from over a year ago, and that mythical new tool library is what I always come back to as the largest hangup.
 
It isn't just the lack of updates but the product being released with major bugs. It never used to be that bad.

The tool library is another story. I remember at IMTS talking to developers and how every time something was brought up that needed fixed if hinged on the tool library. He even admitted they backed themselves into a corner with that excuse. So it that was the major problem why wouldn't you just get it knocked out and over with.

As for Fusion I think you have what will be the best out of the 3 of them. Turning is coming to Fusion, already has a different geometry selection than hsmwork, newer tool library, preview for plasma/waterjet etc...... I think Carl Bass is ready for a rat race to the bottom with Onshape. Fusion is the only product he mentions. What a stunt they pulled this year took all the features that were in ultimate that people we paying extra for and put them in the standard version of fusion and gave ultimate users some cloud credits. Yeah!!! I was just logging in to my account today to verify that the auto renew was tuned off for fusion.

I
 
That said, go look at what CAMWorks changed for their 2015 "upgrade" and believe me, HSMWorks starts looking a lot nicer. We don't even have a simple 2-axis mill-turn post because every time our post guy tries he breaks something else, and therefor we are making some parts on two machines when they could be getting done on one, in a single setup (some very simple milling operations too, like flutes along the Z axis, a single axis move with X axis positioning ball mill operation).

Not to hijack this thread, but I found out the hard way that with Camworks (with our VAR anyway) that I could not depend upon the "post guy". Had to learn to roll my own. Was painful at first, but now I have not only a good 2 axis Faunc 10T post, but even a main/sub spindle mill/turn center post that is "almost" flawless.You may not have the time or appetite to make your own posts, but it's the only way you'll be happy.
 
It isn't just the lack of updates but the product being released with major bugs. It never used to be that bad.

The tool library is another story. I remember at IMTS talking to developers and how every time something was brought up that needed fixed if hinged on the tool library. He even admitted they backed themselves into a corner with that excuse. So it that was the major problem why wouldn't you just get it knocked out and over with.

As for Fusion I think you have what will be the best out of the 3 of them. Turning is coming to Fusion, already has a different geometry selection than hsmwork, newer tool library, preview for plasma/waterjet etc...... I think Carl Bass is ready for a rat race to the bottom with Onshape. Fusion is the only product he mentions. What a stunt they pulled this year took all the features that were in ultimate that people we paying extra for and put them in the standard version of fusion and gave ultimate users some cloud credits. Yeah!!! I was just logging in to my account today to verify that the auto renew was tuned off for fusion

I haven't been around long enough to judge on the bugs. I've only encountered one thus far, and reported it on the CAM Forum, but that was in XPress, no idea about 'Works.

I think Fusion is better than OnShape. If I have anything at all to say about it, I will never be using Mastercam or CAMWorks again on any platform (OnShape's CAM partners). I do agree about the Ultimate vs Standard junk. It did leave me asking what I'm paying for, but on the other hand, it's only $300 a year for me. I wonder how the folks who jumped at $1200 feel. 5-axis paths (in Ultimate only when they get there) is cool and all, but what machine shop is going to be using even a UMC750 and Fusion?

Not to hijack this thread, but I found out the hard way that with Camworks (with our VAR anyway) that I could not depend upon the "post guy". Had to learn to roll my own. Was painful at first, but now I have not only a good 2 axis Faunc 10T post, but even a main/sub spindle mill/turn center post that is "almost" flawless.You may not have the time or appetite to make your own posts, but it's the only way you'll be happy.

CAMWorks won't ever make me happy. The workflow is a maddening feature-based, database-bloated clusterf*** and I hate it. That the support is that bad (what are we paying for??? that terrible 2015 update?), and that I need to make sketches for even simple toolpaths where the solid geometry should suffice is a no-go in my book.

I'd rather keep using HSMXpress and wait to buy HSMWorks than use CAMWorks again.
 
Hijack away, I don't care. I think it is very important to be able to modify your own post. No way I would want to purchase software and be locked into a VAR/Support having to make the edits.

As I look back through some of the post on HSMWorks, it is hard to believe how long this has been going on with delayed/stalled development. I posted the question back in January 08, 2013 and got the same excuses were getting today. They are hiring a big team, got to port HSMWorks code blah, blah, blah. So the moral is I guess after believing them for 2+ years I am just a slow learner.

https://camforum.autodesk.com/index.php?topic=1671.0
 
I'd rather keep using HSMXpress and wait to buy HSMWorks than use CAMWorks again.

I'd think long and hard be before I threw any money in that bucket. Maybe InventorHSM. I mean they priced HSMWorks into obsolescence. I can't see anyone starting from scratch purchasing SW+HSMWorks over InventorHSM. If you were a die hard SW user maybe.
 
I hear what you're saying, it has slowed significantly. However, HSMworks make me money everyday so I can't complain too much. I also don't use it much for turning. I can fingercam pretty quick on most things. I have used it to generate complex geometry code, but Ijust cut and paste the HSM code into my hand written code. I purchased a new Okuma 560-v mill with a 4th, I looked in the support section of the forum and found an Okuma milling with A axis and it worked like a charm. My new machine and I were making good parts the first day.


I'd say go forth and try other mid range cams and see what you see. I agree with you but I also know that it's sometimes a grass is always greener kinda thing.

As far as the SW thing, Inventor is not a popular solution with my customer base, SW is the more important package. If it came down to it, HSMworks will go before SW.
 
I hear what you're saying, it has slowed significantly. However, HSMworks make me money everyday so I can't complain too much. I also don't use it much for turning. I can fingercam pretty quick on most things. I have used it to generate complex geometry code, but Ijust cut and paste the HSM code into my hand written code. I purchased a new Okuma 560-v mill with a 4th, I looked in the support section of the forum and found an Okuma milling with A axis and it worked like a charm. My new machine and I were making good parts the first day.


I'd say go forth and try other mid range cams and see what you see. I agree with you but I also know that it's sometimes a grass is always greener kinda thing.

As far as the SW thing, Inventor is not a popular solution with my customer base, SW is the more important package. If it came down to it, HSMworks will go before SW.

You may be right, but it that is the case then turning CAM software is in pretty sad shape.:D

In being honest the Milling side makes me money also. It is just that there are really no advancements being made there that I can really see. So what would I be paying for. The part that sucks is my customers are also SW users and if they upgrade to SW 2016 in the fall I was planning to also, but now I would not be able to since the HSMWorks version I have would not work in 2016SW.

Oh well that is just the way it goes. I have been looking at NX the hardest of any just some video demos and such. I have a few jobs to get out the door then a VAR is getting me a trial of the NX software so I can try it first hand.
 
Probably a good move, I think NX is definitely a step up in all regards but it also isn't really a mid range solution. I guess it depends on what options you buy. I know that a full house version is very pricey, but there are various levels.

Not defending HSMworks turning.....it sucks, but I was writing lathe code long before HSMworks existed so that doesn't bother me as much.
 
It's certainly taking longer than expected, and there's plenty of room for improvement. I still can't find anything else on the market i'd rather use, and that's after demoing everything on the market. NX is/was the only thing moderately interesting.
 
It's certainly taking longer than expected, and there's plenty of room for improvement. I still can't find anything else on the market i'd rather use, and that's after demoing everything on the market. NX is/was the only thing moderately interesting.

I know what you are saying Rob, some of them only take about 30 seconds of video to see how bad they suck. For me though it isn't just the fact that turning in HSMWorks sucks. It is that I don't believe HSMWorks will ever get the attention it used to. I really think the long term writing is on the wall for HSMWorks. Inventor or Fusion will always get the attention first and will be priced at a competitive advantage to HSMWorks. Believe me I get it, Autodesk bought the product it is their choice how to develop it. So how much more time or money do I want to invest in a product that has proven to me that it is not really going anywhere as evidenced over the last 2.5 years of nothing?

I'd be willing to send them a check tomorrow if there were any evidence of progress in HSMWorks but there just isn't IMO. I mean honestly how many years does it take to develop a database to store tool information? The new tool library has plenty on new icons but the don't do anything. You can't even assign a material group to the tool. The filter button is just for future functionality. Com'on. Not sure if you ever have this happen but say you are in the process of creating an operation and you select the tool and decide you want to make the shoulder length longer, as far as I can tell now you can't you will have to exit the operation and then open the tool library manager make the change then go back to the operation. I hope I am wrong but that is the only way I could get it to work in the latest Fusion release.
 
Interesting dialog, and good to know. Bummer that HSMworks isn't living up its the promise for you. I'd be interested in hearing someone like Glen Seekins' thoughts on it, as I think he was heavily invested in HSMworks, but it looks like he is no longer active on PM.

I need to post a reply to the older thread I created and one that was subsequently started, but I made a quick stab at using Fusion360 again last week, and I was really impressed with the progress. You might recall that my previous attempt found it to be more or less unusable, but the simple CAD work I did the other day showed great improvement. That might be more a reflection of some of the Youtube videos/tutorials I watched, which weren't online at the time I previously trialed it.

The CAD/CAM market seems to be in such a state of flux (that's a good thing) right now that its hard to know where to put your effort. From this thread, it seems like HSMworks support in SW is trailing off, SW has nothing else going on for the CAM side, Fusion and Onshape still seem to premature to consider as a permanent solution, Inventor/HSM has a price point similar to SW, without the user base/industry standard advantage of SW, etc. I'm also wondering if once autodesk has extracted the value out of its beta testers/customers, it will jump Fusion up to a more comparable price point of Inventor/HSM or SW. Hopefully they intend to make up the difference in volume ;-)

Brent

Brent
 
Inventor/HSM has a price point similar to SW, without the user base/industry standard advantage of SW, etc.

As a CAM solution, the price point of Inventor/HSM is roughly half that of SW/HSM due to the inclusion of Inventor/Inventor Pro, and with significantly less maintenance cost afterwards due to the elimination of Solidworks maintenance fees.

Glen Seekins still pops into the HSMWorks forum from time to time.
 
Also keep in mind the new ADSK licensing policy geared toward making it easier for the end users.

After Jan 2016 new customer or new seats will only be able to rent the software year to year. It is really a great system, if ADSK development slows down like it has with HSMWorks you still get the privilege of paying to use it. Its like a WIN-WIN!

As it stand today even existing desktop user won't be able upgrade to the next level.

Our announced Perpetual License Changes will affect the following four CAM products; HSMWorks Professional, HSMWorks Premium, Inventor HSM and Inventor HSM Pro. When we end the sale of new perpetual licenses for these four products on January 31, 2016, we will also end the sale of add seats and crossgrades from the 2.5 axis products to the 5 axis versions.

If you own HSMWorks Pro you will no longer be able to add seats or crossgrade to HSMWorks Premium.

If you own Inventor HSM you will no longer be able to add seats or crossgrade to Inventor HSM Pro.



After January 31st, if you want to begin using a 5 axis CAM product, your options will be to start a Desktop Subscription for Inventor HSM or HSMWorks Premium. Or switch to Fusion 360.



Our only cloud-based CAM offering is Fusion 360, and you are right, it is different. Our announced Perpetual License Changes effective January 31, 2016 will not affect Fusion 360 users, because Fusion 360 is only available with a Subscription.
 
Yeah that is some serious BS and I hope it blows up in AD's face. The long tail of files that the average business generates will basically be used to hold them hostage to the subscription.

I am a long time user of HSM and have the permanent license. I also have thousands of sw/hsm files that I will be able to access without having to pay a continuous fee.

I can see the low cost of entry being attractive to a hobby/startup/"maker" type customer but not to an established business. I pays my money I "owns" my software.
 
Brilliant marketing strategies like that, that only serve to piss off the customer base are what creates opportunity in the marketplace for others, and options for users. So maybe something unexpected and good will come of it. Despite SW's price, one of the best things about them is the maintenance and upgrade strategy they have maintained. If you don't want to pay maintenance, no problem, you can hold where you are at for a few years and then update without getting totally raped.

Autodesk seems to totally have their head up their ass trying to figure out the right pricing model, with the whole 'get in while you can on F360 ultimate", and subsequently giving it away just a month or so later, and now the above licensing issues that you posted.

Brent
 
In being honest the Milling side makes me money also. It is just that there are really no advancements being made there that I can really see. So what would I be paying for. The part that sucks is my customers are also SW users and if they upgrade to SW 2016 in the fall I was planning to also, but now I would not be able to since the HSMWorks version I have would not work in 2016SW.


C,

so if you decide to not upgrade HSMWorks or Solidworks which you own and will never die, unless a new OS won't run it, I have a solution.

If you have been watching OnShape it will take native SW files, so open the newer SW2016 files and then save parasolids to to open in your version of SW\HSMWorks and keep programming and OnShape is free!


here is something that happened to me just 2 weeks ago, had a SW file go bad and didn't have time to re-model as it was to be used to adjust a part that was machined, I was at my wits end, tried a shitload of things non worked to get it back...................

then I remembered that OnShape works hand in hand with SW...........................so I opened OS, and HOLY COW!, opened right up, save as parasolid and got it back into SW, son of a bitch no backwards issues any more BABY.!!
 
As a CAM solution, the price point of Inventor/HSM is roughly half that of SW/HSM due to the inclusion of Inventor/Inventor Pro, and with significantly less maintenance cost afterwards due to the elimination of Solidworks maintenance fees.

Rob if you play the SW subscription game of getting it every 3 to 4 years it is alot less, say you have SW standard $1295\yr. X 3 yrs. = $3885 or X 4 = $5180, now here is what it would cost with a 3 yr lapse $1295 + $500 (penalty) = $1795 and if you keep HSMWorks current it will work give or take 3 releases forwards or backwards.

as I stated to CSharp with OnShape compatibility is no longer an issue
 
Rob if you play the SW subscription game of getting it every 3 to 4 years it is alot less, say you have SW standard $1295\yr. X 3 yrs. = $3885 or X 4 = $5180, now here is what it would cost with a 3 yr lapse $1295 + $500 (penalty) = $1795 and if you keep HSMWorks current it will work give or take 3 releases forwards or backwards.

as I stated to CSharp with OnShape compatibility is no longer an issue


I get what you are saying Lenny, but I am not trying to save money. I want software that works and is constantly being improved. I don't want to waste time with import and export dumb solids.
 








 
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