AutoDesk HSMWorks - I am cutting my losses and jumping ship. What next? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by irobotix View Post
    Nope. I will never use another Autodesk product in the history of time.
    I think I know how you feel. That is why I did not buy featurecam. The Fusion thing is just a quick fix.

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    I feel basically the same as many that are unhappy with ADSK. I also wish they never would have bough HSMmWorks. But the reality is the only things that had going for them were the tightest integration and best UI/UX of any solid works cam package and the adaptive tool path. I don't think many of the unhappy would argue those points. But the reality is that even if ADSK would not have bought them they still would not have been at the same feature level as many of the more mature packages.

    The IMO have struggled with everything outside of those 2 areas. I never hear great reviews or the 4th or 5th axis and I can tell you the turning is not good and only gets worse as time goes on. So while ADSK may have screwed many on the change to subscription only they still would not have been great.

    One thing I think you will find in looking for other cam systems is none of them have the UI/UX of HSMWorks and are a let down. I have been looking for a while and every time I get thru a video or a demo I am reminded of that.

    I don't blame anyone from moving on and actively encourage people to not even get started with ADSK. I am fortunate that I have a stand alone perpetual license that I can still use. However that means I can no longer update SW as HSMmWorks is not forward compatible.

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    Just did some reading on the CamWorks/Solidworks CAM - it shows only 2.5D which is kind of a bummer. I really hope they offer a 3D even if it costs more than what is bundled in Solidworks itself. It is encouraging to see Solidworks stepping up to the plate however, and I really hope this goes somewhere.

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    I spoke with my VAR about this and at the time he said it was his understanding that SolidWorks CAM would only be 2.5d and turning. If you wanted more advanced you would have to buy from CAMWorks. Not sure how true that was and it was when the beta was first released and he may not have fully know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    Are you saying included as in free??

    I was accepted to the beta but have not installed it yet as now one seemed to be able to answer the price or if it was going to only be available in premium.

    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    I spoke with my VAR about this and at the time he said it was his understanding that SolidWorks CAM would only be 2.5d and turning. If you wanted more advanced you would have to buy from CAMWorks. Not sure how true that was and it was when the beta was first released and he may not have fully know.
    Quote Originally Posted by irobotix View Post
    Just did some reading on the CamWorks/Solidworks CAM - it shows only 2.5D which is kind of a bummer. I really hope they offer a 3D even if it costs more than what is bundled in Solidworks itself. It is encouraging to see Solidworks stepping up to the plate however, and I really hope this goes somewhere.
    Looks like they are changing it.. I tried finding the Goengineer Video I watched looks like goengineer pulled off youtube

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    I would guess that putting videos of a beta product on youtube would violate the beta NDA, maybe that is why they took them down????

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    Just my opinion, mastercams diversity and ability to modify lead in's and outs give you way more control of your programming. I am only comparing to cimatron e. It seams like a catch 22 though because cimatron e had a few features I really liked but mastercam I feel just has more options to get the result you want faster.

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    CAMWorks sucks and you'll need Microsoft Access to set up and utilize your tool library.

    Go Mastercam. I would in heartbeat before choking through CW again, especially if you're used to direct programming and not feature-based software (it's maddening).

    Sure I use HSMWorks and I do think they're slowly working on turning, but if you're out, you're out. I used Mastercam before (although X6 was the last version) and although there are plenty of things to complain about, at least you have lots of control and it isn't feature-based

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  10. #29
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    You should look at solidcam - they have quite a set of videos up now about how to do things with their app, you could watch the videos to get a good sense for what it's like. It's the only serious CAM I've used, so I can't compare it to mastercam, etc.

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    Not to be too much of a contrarian, but HSM Works (and Fusion/Inventor) is probably the most actively developed and progressing CAM software on the market today. The fact that the CAM core is getting deployed across 3 platforms is kind of a bummer, but look at the continual, weekly updates. Plus open access to the development team and relatively fast turnaround on critical bugs as users find them. I don't think any other CAM package is getting pushed this fast...

    And that is because perpetual licenses/maintenance models suck for selling software. Most of the user base paid $10k (50% of which went into the pockets of a VAR) many years ago, and only a portion of those continue to pay maintenance. Every CAD/CAM company out there has suffered the painful fallout of this shitty pricing model, even though users came to rely on it as the standard... but don't forget that this is a standard that has littered the CAD/CAM market with dozens and dozens of software packages that never really progressed beyond V2 or V3 before the steam ran out on revenue and development resources choked down to a trickle without regular cash coming in the door.

    It sucks for people who paid up front (I'm in the same boat with SolidWorks... and we will all probably be getting the shit sandwich in the next year or two), but if you want CAD/CAM that isn't trapped in 1994 computing, the subscription model is really the only way forward from a business standpoint.

  12. #31
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    the problem with all of that is that (a) it presumes the things being added to the software matter and (b) it amounts to a price increase in a world where all other software is getting cheaper over time and (c) it threatens to leave people high and dry.

    solidworks already charges a bloody fortune for support upgrades, which at least some people buy just to deal with files from later versions their customers use - i made their salesman upset by pointing out that their changes added no value and sometimes removed it. sometimes a product is mature and you need to accept that there's no more value to add, and therefore no more money to be earned. (well no CEO or investor wants to accept it)

    the real "shit sandwich" will be when some collection of open source/freeware/included with the machine tool/part of google set of tools show up that are "good enough" and people start punting the expensive packages altogether.

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  14. #32
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    Interesting thread. I to bought VX years ago during that promotion and it has not advanced all that far since 2005. For the last five or six years it has been stagnant and while you can do most everything three axis in it it requires time and tricks not well known to make it right. Last numbers I heard were a bit under $7,000.00 with negotiation or promos. CAD side is dated and direct editing is crude compared to Solid Edge as is sheet metal if you are doing MCAD.

    I have also used CAMWorks for Solid Edge and it was the complete nightmare that drove me to HSMWorks. Complicated nightmarish Tech Data Base will make your life miserable and if you don't fight this thing you cant make their feed a part and watch itself program paradigm. Updates break your TDB and you have to start over. CAMWorks has a closed user forum because they do not want you to read complaints that go back many years and never seem to go away. Post processors are extra unless you negotiate, and get this in writing-no verbal commitments. Volumill is not as good as HSM Adaptive. Programming avoiding the TDB can be done but it will never be simple fast and intuitive like HSM although you can do more things in CAMWorks. Very expensive to buy and yearly maintenance fees will open your eyes.

    I would not consider VX now ZW3D or CAMWorks for use in my shop today at any price.

    Which brings me to my big disappointment HSM inside of Autodesk subs only food chain. Great program world best Adaptive tool path and quick and easy to learn. Sadly also is subscription only now for new customers and they are going to raise the prices of perpetual seats by 35% per year by 2019. They are also not mentioning any prices beyond this and the general suspicion is that is for a reason. They have come out and clearly stated they are going to do away with perpetual seats and the only way they can do this is to make them prohibitively expensive and run us off to subs. In the mean time no long term promises about cost containment for subs customers on one hand while on the other they have told investor groups that their intent is to extract more money from each customer. At Autodesk you are not a customer whose loyalty must be earned through fair pricing and quality products but rather you are an ATM they want to wall into a subs only environment you can never leave if you wish to use your intellectual property you created there.

    There is another real bad thing about Autodesk too and I wait with bated breath to see how secrecy and confidentiality agreements their customers have with their customers can be fulfilled. You see every month with subs you have to go online to get a new permission to use the product. I know tons of companies that will not allow their computers online because it is not safe. Technically every buyer of Autodesk subs will be in violation of these agreements since once online they can't guarantee confidentiality to their customers. How big is the risk? Who knows but let me tell you this. Autodesk believes the risk is big enough that in the fine print you will discover they do not have your back if you suffer from online hacking they forced you into due to their licensing procedure.

    Two big bad things with HSM and Autodesk namely their desire to turn all customers into chattel with no cost containment and forced online exposure to hackers. If you are a Fusion360 user it is far worse. You can't save your work unless you go online to do so. Every time is my understanding. You go there to do more than earn enough money to buy something somewhere else you deserve what you get. Use it initially in your startup when you are hurting for cash and learn the basics of part and cam creation and before you have significant intellectual property leave before you lose it online.

    I highly doubt I will ever renew with Inventor HSM again. Inventor is a real dog barker compared to Solid Edge which I just renewed for two more years. What a joy SE is compared to Inventor. So there goes the CAD side of the equation. Inventor is capable and a huge nightmare to use compared to SE. HSM is a buy for what is there right now product. They are very good at what they do but have not advanced nearly as fast as their competitors have. To much time from limited programmer staff has had to be spent to get Fusion360 and the Inventor integration kind of up to speed so the pace of real innovation has dropped off while yearly prices to customers have not.

    As a result today knowing what I know if I were to start over in today's environment I would choose Mastercam. They have a high speed machining program now every bit as good as HSM's from what I hear. They have no intention of going to sub's only which is huge for me. Yeah it is more than I want to spend especially since I have this trail of money spent elsewhere I hate to just walk away from. I can after all use my perpetual seat of HSM for years to come. Of course if Mastercam reconsiders and digs deep to offer refugee prices I could be persuaded to switch and ditch Autodesk. With HSM being so easy to learn the fact that Mastercam's largest in class trained user base available for hire does not mean so much anymore unless you are going to adopt Mastercam. There is no doubt in my mind that the page page click click Mastercam thing that alienated me years ago is going away. I have watched at my friends shop them using the newest version and I can live with that. They have made significant advances in the last couple of years and HSM has basically stood still because the demands of Fusion360 and Inventor integration have eaten up most of the effort.

    One thing I have learned is never buy the promise of things to come. Buy for what is there right now and the provable philosophy of the company behind it. Do they want you as a customer because they earn your money? Mastercam wins today under those guidelines for the same reason HSM won so many SolidWorks users years ago. You see I bought a permanent seat of Inventor Pro HSM before they outlawed new seat purchases. I figured I would be OK because I had gotten in beforehand. What I did not expect was the betrayal of perpetual seat holders. Yeah they are letting us keep them until they make them so expensive we can't. I think it is a crap philosophy and it reveals the innermost regard those who run Autodesk have for me. Shut up and pay up and be still and remember the only important money to Autodesk is yours in their pockets. Not how much money is in yours because you use their products. As far as I am concerned they are not to be trusted and their betrayal of permanent seat customers ought to be all you need to know. I remember the big push to buy extra seats from Autodesk VAR's before the cutoff date. Autodesk screwed people knowingly when they had the big perpetual seat push prior to the cutoff date. They knew they needed cash right then and here was a way to raise it and they also knew that by 2019 they were going to raise the costs by 35% for those. They refuse to give prices past that and I can't imagine why. My cost yearly for Solid Edge has basically been the same since 2009 for comparison by the way and what I paid for ST1 is almost exactly what I paid for ST9 and 10.

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  16. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Not to be too much of a contrarian, but HSM Works (and Fusion/Inventor) is probably the most actively developed and progressing CAM software on the market today. The fact that the CAM core is getting deployed across 3 platforms is kind of a bummer, but look at the continual, weekly updates. Plus open access to the development team and relatively fast turnaround on critical bugs as users find them. I don't think any other CAM package is getting pushed this fast...

    And that is because perpetual licenses/maintenance models suck for selling software. Most of the user base paid $10k (50% of which went into the pockets of a VAR) many years ago, and only a portion of those continue to pay maintenance. Every CAD/CAM company out there has suffered the painful fallout of this shitty pricing model, even though users came to rely on it as the standard... but don't forget that this is a standard that has littered the CAD/CAM market with dozens and dozens of software packages that never really progressed beyond V2 or V3 before the steam ran out on revenue and development resources choked down to a trickle without regular cash coming in the door.

    It sucks for people who paid up front (I'm in the same boat with SolidWorks... and we will all probably be getting the shit sandwich in the next year or two), but if you want CAD/CAM that isn't trapped in 1994 computing, the subscription model is really the only way forward from a business standpoint.
    Inventor Pro HSM has had three beta updates in the last five or six months if my memory serves me well. That past pace of updates does not happen anymore. The PC was created to free people from Mainframe owned by others problems. Subs recreates this environment of servitude and I guess since history is not taught or remembered the reasons for autonomy will have to be learned once again. Subs is so 1980 I can't stand it.

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    I've been playing with the beta of solidworks cam. They are trying to truly integrate it, CAM is literally just another tab on the left hand bar. At this point it's still in development (hence the beta), but they might be on to something here.

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    I've been using Mastercam since the 90's and while it's not cheap, I've never had any of the complaints that everyone else does with just about every other cad/cam program out there, with regards to lack of support, lack of updates, being bought out, etc...
    It's absolutely worth every penny, and has the best customer support you could ask for.

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  20. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Not to be too much of a contrarian, but HSM Works (and Fusion/Inventor) is probably the most actively developed and progressing CAM software on the market today. The fact that the CAM core is getting deployed across 3 platforms is kind of a bummer, but look at the continual, weekly updates. Plus open access to the development team and relatively fast turnaround on critical bugs as users find them. I don't think any other CAM package is getting pushed this fast...

    And that is because perpetual licenses/maintenance models suck for selling software. Most of the user base paid $10k (50% of which went into the pockets of a VAR) many years ago, and only a portion of those continue to pay maintenance. Every CAD/CAM company out there has suffered the painful fallout of this shitty pricing model, even though users came to rely on it as the standard... but don't forget that this is a standard that has littered the CAD/CAM market with dozens and dozens of software packages that never really progressed beyond V2 or V3 before the steam ran out on revenue and development resources choked down to a trickle without regular cash coming in the door.

    It sucks for people who paid up front (I'm in the same boat with SolidWorks... and we will all probably be getting the shit sandwich in the next year or two), but if you want CAD/CAM that isn't trapped in 1994 computing, the subscription model is really the only way forward from a business standpoint.
    I have had the exact opposite experience, Worst support of any software I have ever used.

    The rapid release rate is great but they seem to have very little if any internal testing and have more regression bugs than others. It is as if the attitude is just get it close and release it, then we can have everyone be a beta tester.

    I don't see all that many CAM systems stuck at version 2. If you look at actual new features and not the long list of bug fixes and things like changed the was blah blah blah works, I think BobCAM out developed them.

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    Siemens NX software is even worse. You have to pay for their maintenance and if you don't, support is completely cut off. If you let the maintenance lapse, they will /charge you/ if you try to get back on maintenance. You get penalized for not keeping up on maintenance. Ridiculous.

    Of course the CAM side is pretty badass but it should be for the price tag.

    I used to flail my arms and complain over software subscription models, but so many companies are doing it (and have been doing it for a long time) while still delivering good product and good development with good support, that I no longer condemn the practice itself.

    I often criticized Autodesk for their support (and lack thereof) back when... but it seems like it has come a long way anymore. The more I deal with CAD/CAM software, the more I realize that it's rarely the software that is the problem, but PEBKAC. I've used a whole lot of different flavors and don't feel like any of them hold me back, and I'm happy to sit and drive any of them, anymore. They all have their idiosyncrasies. After the years, I've found that all I did when jumping from one to the next, was experience the grass being greener temporarily. Soon the new shiny thing lost its luster as the 'newness' of its benefits faded, and I was left disgruntled with what it didn't do so well.

    I guess I'm a software cynic, now. heh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    I think BobCAM out developed them.
    You mean out-integrated them (using ModuleWorks).

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    Quote Originally Posted by csharp View Post
    I think BobCAM out developed them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Atomkinder View Post
    You mean out-integrated them (using ModuleWorks).
    Believe it or not, I think csharp has it correctly. The latest BC ( v29 ) has a lot of things that one can absolutely attribute to its obvious use of ModuleWorks, but there are things that are simply plain, old, development additions. I am working in Turning right now and I've got to say, they've done a fairly good job with it. Went from installation to making parts in LESS than a few hours, and that includes rewriting a post to suit my machine on my own and creating a tool library.

    And... ( wait for it ) ... control of Leads Ins, Lead Outs, Approaches, and Exits is pretty nifty. Grooving is ... well... pretty groovy. Parting is ... well... sweet. No sorrow. In the wise words of a long deceased mentor, "It don't suck."

    Now, before this gets to derailing the intent of the thread, yes I am very well aware of what I posted some time back about some lying and deceit that occurred. I am happy to address that in private conversations at length, but for the sake of brevity here, I will simply say that it was handled recently, explained to my satisfaction, and more importantly - steps were actually taken with the individual which will prevent it from occurring again. Nuff sed. Period.

    Point of post is that as far as the software goes, it's definitely seen a lot of development, and it shows! I think I kind of like it so far...

    Bottom line is that if someone is looking to move CADCAM systems, they'd do themselves a favor to not rule it out. For the price point, it sure seems to beat the snot out of anything else I have seen in the last decade. ( and I've used most of them, actually )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomkinder View Post
    You mean out-integrated them (using ModuleWorks).
    Sure, you can call it that. I for one don't really care about the internals of the software and where they come from. I am more interested in the parts I interact with the UI/UX and the generated code.

    So I will still say the end result is BobCAM pulled ahead of them in the things that matter. Gcode, UI/UX, or work flow and features. But it was encouraging to see that with absolute control on the kernel and all code Autodesk could fix the part off bug in only 2 years. Just think if they would have had to wait on a 3rd party to fix the kernel. People would probably still be waiting.

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