BOBCAD/CAM or other options? Decent Size Shop in need of reliable 5 axis CAM

Hello,

I own and operate a manufacturing business, currently our CNCs consist of a Mazak SQT and a Mazak V515 with M-Plus control. Was going to lean on a local programmer to do our more complex mill programs as the lathe is all conversational and the Mazatrol on the mill only gets us so far. Turns out he is super slow and not going to work out... My operator is talented at Mazatrol with some experience with MasterCam. Looking to purchase CAM software so that we have more control of our own product's processes but also for flexibility job shopping. Currently using griffo bros for communication to the machines but feel we should get something more universal as we may change machine makes down the road.

The vertical mill is a 4 axis(indexing) which we will soon be turning into a 5 axis with a KME rotary for simply indexing a ton of drilled holes in one of our in house plastic parts. Looking for a CAM on a budget to let us move forward but also something worth while that we could grow with and progress, not a hobby shop situation. Plus we need customer service as we are deadlines and time is very valuable. Was quoted BobCAD 5 axis standard, 3 axis pro, with 1 year subscription, 1 year support, and training dvds for $5k. It sounds like a good deal, especially in comparison to other more expensive lines. Yes I have seen a lot of bad forums about BobCAD but two things stuck out to me. One I was seeing most of the negative stuff only in 2007 to 2012 and two I think its a lot of forum drama made by people who don't understand the word work. I am not saying I know BobCAD is good or bad but by seeing the posts and no real data to back up claims I think lazy people are who to blame for blowing the bad reputation out of proportion but then again I could be wrong. My gut says that the V29 would probably suit our needs very well.

Is buying the New V29 BobCAD a good step or should we try to somehow rummage up a used copy of an older 5 axis version or possibly another CAM option? We could simply start out with a 4 axis but will be needing 5 axis in the coming months which I assume would make buying used a little trickier. Down the road we plan to bring SolidWorks in house as well as we are currently outsourcing our it for our complex sheet metal assemblies. It looks like BobCAD and SolidWorks work well combined.

Thanks,
Ethan

Hi Ethan.

I am a user of v28 (3axis pro and 4axis std) and run an old Mazak vqc20/50b.
Prior to getting the software in 2014 (started of v27) I had never used cam, but had a strong Cad background.
I found bobcad easy enough to learn although has its own idiosyncrasies in how you do things. Its not the best Cad end in the world but I come from an autodesk and solid edge background which Id say are a bit more powerful in the Cad side.

The Cam side is pretty good in Bobcad. I have found it to be quite effective once I sorted out a couple of issues with the post for the old machine.

In terms of support, I am in Australia so the time difference is inconvenient but I have to commend the bobcad team as they turned my queries around generally within the 24hr window. Im sure if I was in the same time zone then this would be much better.

I too have seen the negative comments around and I can't say that I have the same issues. Sure it can be temperamental. If you dont model correctly you may crash the software when running some of the toolpath generation. Once I learned what those details are, the crashes seemed to stop. I am putting it down to user error. As you mention, a lot of the bad press was from previous versions and most of those experienced users have moved on to other software, so have probably not gone back to give bobcad another try in the last 2 incarnations.

One of the biggest assets that Bobcad has is Al De Paolo. He is excellent in his knowledge and support, and a member here.

My stuff is mainly one off stuff with a a bit of small runs thrown in. Surface contouring in 3D was a key requirement and it achieves this nicely.

AUD0.02

Cheers

Mick

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Sophtayl,

I am glad to read your response regarding the CAM working well. Makes perfect sense that the CAD side may not be up to par with big names like AutoCAD and Solidworks that have their entire focus on it. I heard Solidworks was to come out with a CAM which could be a great option if we were to ignore our timeframe but we can't and desperately need CAM in house now. I also think that having an experienced support staff to back up CAM is of value compared to a brand new product coming out even if it is backed by a big name. I have noticed AL DePaolo and how a lot of people respect him for knowledge and always getting an answer.

What a coincidence how you have a similar machine/setup I am looking to do. Tweaking the post processor makes perfect sense to as I imagine hitting the nail on the head there would be tough starting out. Now just to foot the bill for the CAM software and a custom built computer to handle our rigorous shop environment. Does the price we got sound like its in the right ballpark?

Ethan

Hi Ethan
I can't really comment on price as I didnt get 5 axis pricing. The sales guys at Bobcad worked with me to achieve what I needed within my budget. I was after 2 seats (1 at the machine and 1 on a laptop as the seats are linked to a computer). 4axis std and 3 axis pro. I later added bobart and then upgraded to v28 as it had a few nice features. It looks like there is an upgrade every year. I probably have around $4k sunk into the software so far but have only used it for 3 axis stuff. I pretty much drip feed 99% of my stuff as I do my programs away from the shop then transfer the file and model to the pc at the mill. I can then tweak the model or cutting parameters locally and rerun certain parts.
If the 5 axis works well then pricing will need to be in the range of what makes sense to you.

Cheers

Mick

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Mick,

Their pricing made sense and advantages like customer support and training videos were very appealing. How do you like the bobart? Can you simply drop a png or vector file and go?

I think bob art is pretty handy. You can bring in images and do some vector conversions, emboss along with a whole heap of other functions to get the right look.
Takes a bit of manipulation but allows you to convert a photo of a clients logo or pictures into vectors for machining. Have a look at some of the webinars by Al on youtube. He has been going through a bit of detail with the various functions and saving the webinar for future reference.

Just allow yourself some honest time to get to know the package. I am happy with it and taught myself from the tutorial videos and CD I got with the package. Then a few questions to Al on his facebook page to fill in some blanks and tweaks.

Confident most people can use it once you learn the approach.

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With the caveat that I have not had the time or need to try any 5ax programming with it, yet, I would have to think that BC will do what you need it to. ( it's on my list; I simply have not had chance yet )

We have used/do use it for 3ax & 4ax milling, 2ax turning, and WEDM. For the money, I don't see how it can be beat in its class. Are there more capable suites available? Absolutely. But I am not aware of any other suite that will do what BC does for the money they charge. Period. Plain and simple.

There is a demo/trial that you can use. As well, if you get serious about trying it, they will let you use it for a short period in effort to do so. Al is great to work with, and Alex is responsive.

Zahnrad Kopf said:

I am not aware of any other suite that will do what BC does for the money they charge. Period. Plain and simple.

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APT. Public domain aka free. 5 axis, known history in aerospace creating such things as Apache helicopters and F4, F14, F16, F18 airplanes. And going to the moon.

Personal APT, slightly more limited but $300. Mill, lathe, toolpath verification and post-processors.

Any APT, the best bargain and the most capable software of all.

I'm a BobCAD user and I use V27 and V29 to post 3+2 to my Haas UMC (5 axis). My license is for 3 axis Pro, 4 axis Standard so I can't comment on the simultaneous 4 or 5 axis module but I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to get good code for my first time posting to a 5 axis machine.

The simulation is as good as you want it to be and that's reassuring when you have moving parts coming within 0.100" or less of each other at high speeds.

The post and machine definitions are key and that's true with just about any software. I wrote my own in BobCAD because I felt comfortable doing it, I bought a post for Mastercam because I didn't. It will make you or break you in 5 axis (my opinion 1.5 years in).

BobART is just so much fun to have. Here's a recent BobART project for a friend. She sent me a picture she found on google to work with. I'm not a pro so I just used simple text tools when I could but this was less than a two hour project start to finish. BobART made working with the logo I found online pretty easy. It had a lot of detail but using the various selection tools I simplified it enough to make it look "clean". It does way more than this simple example, you'll have to look at some other work for a real idea of what it does.

Final piece of advice, make sure you NEED simultaneous 5th no matter what you buy. It's great to have and every one wants to make an impeller or some other goofy shit but I rarely have to bust out the 5 axis tools.

EDIT: BobCAD will also come with Predator to send files to your machines. Do yourself a favor and upgrade to G-Code backplotting with the "Pro" Editor. It also does 5 axis if you set it up right.

RTM,

I ended up pulling the trigger on 3 axis pro, 4 axis standard, 5 axis standard with bobart and trading DVD etc. On July 4th. After reading the earlier posts and the vibe I got from their support staff that it was a good deal. Just got everything in the mail today and lined my operator out to start with the training film while I get the computer built. (Water cooled built computer for our hot shop environment.)

That bobart work you show is very impressive, I think the smaller value bobart add on will really make it's worth when we have projects like that pop up. Christmas gifts is one that comes to mind.

Our Mazak 515 is currently a 3 +1 being a 12" tsudokoma rotary(Just indexes and holds). The reason I opted for 5 axis out the gate was because we plan to add a small KME rotary which integrates very easy and economically and make it a 3 +2. All for a simple new in house product which involves hundreds of 2mm holes in a plastic cylinder involving tons of indexes in both rotaries. I assume something like this would be pretty doable for a novice bobcad operator? Could be CAM only as I have a good solidworks guy on call. I was gonna ask my operator to start to tackle it after knocking out some more time sensitive parts.

Congrats.
Learn as much as you can and ask as many questions as you can. Al jas a facebook group set up for users and questions etc

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EckFab said:

RTM,

I ended up pulling the trigger on 3 axis pro, 4 axis standard, 5 axis standard with bobart and trading DVD etc. On July 4th. After reading the earlier posts and the vibe I got from their support staff that it was a good deal. Just got everything in the mail today and lined my operator out to start with the training film while I get the computer built. (Water cooled built computer for our hot shop environment.)

That bobart work you show is very impressive, I think the smaller value bobart add on will really make it's worth when we have projects like that pop up. Christmas gifts is one that comes to mind.

Our Mazak 515 is currently a 3 +1 being a 12" tsudokoma rotary(Just indexes and holds). The reason I opted for 5 axis out the gate was because we plan to add a small KME rotary which integrates very easy and economically and make it a 3 +2. All for a simple new in house product which involves hundreds of 2mm holes in a plastic cylinder involving tons of indexes in both rotaries. I assume something like this would be pretty doable for a novice bobcad operator? Could be CAM only as I have a good solidworks guy on call. I was gonna ask my operator to start to tackle it after knocking out some more time sensitive parts.

Click to expand...

Did you not get the Preditor Pro???
Need that too IMHO

jrmach said:

Did you not get the Preditor Pro???
Need that too IMHO

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Is predator pro their data transfer progam? We have griffo brothers for data transfer. We initially planned to stay mazak/griffo bros as we initially had good service from mazak but then they completely dropped the ball hard on a spindle so were going to jump ship the next time machine buying comes up lol. Gonna try to get the goodie out of griffo brothers basic software in meantime.

I think predator pro gives you simulation as well.

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Preditor Pro,also known as Preditor 2,,,Does Back plotting with the actual G-Code,,most simulations are done from the CAM ,,,,So if Preditor is configured right for your exact machine,it catches little stuff,,,like Dog Leg Rapids that will not show up in a normal CAM Simulation,which is actually a pretty big thing,,Catching that once or twice easily pays for it.
Yes Preditor does data transfer and drip feed also,,,and you can manual edit your program and save it
I am not familiar with what you are using,,,,you could be golden ?
Preditor has been the choice of G-Code editor for over a decade with BoB,,and is pretty infallible when set up right
Remember,G-Code simulator,,,not Simulation from CAM,,,,big difference
Use both,but realize one works from the tool path produced from CAM,,the other works from the actual G-CODE and how that G-Code work on YOUR particular machine,,,big difference

RTM mentioned it also in his post,,,we both are firm believers in it,,and pretty cheap if it saves one or two instances of "oh fuck"

Congrats on the purchase! The basic Predator will allow you to communicate with most machines so feel free to play with it, you own it. All versions of BCC include the Level 1 Predator.

Level 2 or "Pro" adds some other cool NC related functions but the real prize is the G Code simulation. It is independent of any CAM system (you can hand write a program), it works with the code that you will load into the machine, and it allows you to setup the kinematics of the machine properly (the Dog-Leg jrmach referred to). Axis accel/decal, toolchange delay, etc. It's a rich program and it's great for time estimating as well. Usually a lot closer than your CAM simulation if you set it up correctly.

I agree with ya jrmach, it's a 'must have'!

We have BOB cad and it works pretty well. I know that my programmer still uses his Gibbs 2004 to do a lot of our lathe programming still.

Frank Kuperman

koopdaddy said:

I know that my programmer still uses his Gibbs 2004 to do a lot of our lathe programming still.

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That's interesting because we've been using their turning module fairly regularly lately and kind of like it a lot. I do wish that standard turning ( not just mill/turn ) had support for standard peripherals like auto tail stock and parts catcher, but they have not been show stoppers yet. ( It just rubs me wrong to have to hand edit them in. ) I am told that they are working on including them but have no idea of when. The sooner the better, I'd say. Still, for the money I don't know of better options for turning CAM.