CAD + CAM + CNC all by one person?

CutEdge · Feb 4, 2016

I wanted to explore this idea... basically, it's design-build. I think it would help with R&D - not production. For R&D purposes, does anyone think it would be beneficial for the engineer to A) Design and draw in CAD, B) create the CAM for all the parts, and then C) actually operate the CNC machine and create the parts.

Some advantages I see are this:
-The engineer gets an intimate familiarity with all aspects of the process, which would provide instant feedback to the design process itself. This would help design for manufacturability and assembly.
-The communication breakdown between engineering and production would be softened, because of the combination of practice and theory.
-Less mistakes.

Does anyone do this?

rklopp · Feb 4, 2016

I do it for my own hobby parts, but it doesn't make much sense for more than a one-person operation. While the engineer is running the CNC she/he's not designing the next part or coding it. In addition, like it or not, it is a fact that CNC operators are paid less than engineers, so you would be using an expensive operator while no more parts get designed.

Zahnrad Kopf · Feb 4, 2016

CutEdge said:
Does anyone do this?

Substitute "toolmaker" or "machinist" for "engineer" and that's what I do, all day, every day.

Personally, I think it is a lot easier to do from my position than that of the engineer's. A good, close, working relationship facilitates this wonderfully.

I take their models ( or create my own ), and modify them or use them. I do the programming, and I do the machining. In my opinion, it was easier for me to learn the little amount to skillfully design and model parts and assemblies than it is for them to learn what 25+ years of machining and building things has. Quicker, too.

I am continually amused by the never ceasing supply of engineers that think that just because they can model a blind .010" hole 12" deep and holding +/-.0001" tolerances that it is easily manufactured as well.

Just my two pfennig.

HuFlungDung · Feb 4, 2016

CutEdge said:
I wanted to explore this idea... basically, it's design-build. I think it would help with R&D - not production. For R&D purposes, does anyone think it would be beneficial for the engineer to A) Design and draw in CAD, B) create the CAM for all the parts, and then C) actually operate the CNC machine and create the parts.

Some advantages I see are this:
-The engineer gets an intimate familiarity with all aspects of the process, which would provide instant feedback to the design process itself. This would help design for manufacturability and assembly.
-The communication breakdown between engineering and production would be softened, because of the combination of practice and theory.
-Less mistakes.

Does anyone do this?

It's a good plan, no doubt. Probably take as long to learn as becoming a doctor

Oh, and throw in some welding, and fitting, too.

If you never have to put together the shit that you design, you're missing 75% of your education on why things are made the way they are.

Tjugo7 · Feb 4, 2016

I do it. Mostly for experimental setup, prototypes etc. In development is is very efficient since the iteration time can be very short, there are no misunderstandings, sending drawings/models around for quoting, etc. If there are a mishap in manufacturing or things does not fit it is solved instantly and so on. A lot of non efficient communication, waiting and so on is cut out.
For example from idea to finished construction (measurement head several moving parts)including one prototype in 30h. This would not be possible in an other way.

Also I understand they define lean in development as minimizing iteration time.

An operator is paid less but is an operator... Usually then you are back to sending parts for quoting, parts put in queue, comes back 2 weeks later (if you are lucky) with a hole in the wrong place or forgotten, send part back and so on.

/Staffan

Halcohead · Feb 4, 2016

I do this all the time at work, for the reasons Staffan cited. Also, when doing things that require unusual machining steps (friction stir welding ops or the like), it's often easier to develop the design in parallel with the machining/manufacturing processes.

For run-of-the-mill machined part designs, I use outside shops unless I need unusually short lead-times. But in general, having in-house machining capability really cuts down on iteration time while prototyping, and also allows development of slightly more exotic techniques when necessary.

cellardoor7 · Feb 4, 2016

I do it all the time, I think a lot of forum members do also.

rcoope · Feb 4, 2016

Yes to all the reasons above and further, it teaches you to feel in your gut the costs of different machining operations which will forever after guide your approach to design. For me it was really understanding the increase in speed of changing a deep channel in acrylic from requiring a 3/16" endmill to allowing the use of a 1/4" endmill. This parameter was driven by biochemical considerations but the result was a lot less time sitting around watching the parts run.

CAM/CNC itself can be pretty time consuming so the threshold for giving to a dedicated person or outside shop is not so high, but when you design with sheet materials and have a waterjet cutter on hand you tend to make many things all the time, if for no other reason than you can then keep your CAM/CNC people doing the few but important difficult CAM/CNC parts so the overall efficiency of the effort is high.

Mike1974 · Feb 5, 2016

Sounds good to me! I think you first need to get the shop experience and understand the how and why of cutting different materials and features. Then you learn cad/cam and you apply all your hands on experience to the cnc side of it. The you need to learn the design end. I have always heard the best cnc guys started out on manual machines (and got pretty good at it), and I assume this translates into the design world as well. If you know how to cut the part, and understand that a 10:1 tool length is not practical, you can do better design work PERIOD.

I am in a great position with a part time job where I work with an engineer that knows how to machine, well the basics anyways. I have lots of freedom to make the parts work to prove out a concept. Something doesn't fit (by the prints) I make the alteration on the fly and note the changes on the print. This information is then looked at to improve the next iteration and so on and so forth. I LOVE that type of work. I hate the bs production where I have to hold a tolerance just because it is on the print. It's fine to be able to hit a tolerance, its another thing to double the machining time because everything is +/-.002 (or whatever), when lots of things could be +/-.01 for example.

Lapuser · Feb 5, 2016

I do work this way and would consider no other way. You don't like the way something works or or is designed you can fix it right there and then and not have to fool around with contacting other companies or individuals to make the changes for you. Many times a customer will provide you with parts files to cut but unless you have a CAD program to go with CAM how are you going to design and make the required work holding devices?

You can make your own equipment or product line and not share your manufacturing data with anyone. Making your own products is where I am heading and it is where the most money can be made.

JNieman · Feb 5, 2016

Yup.

Did it for a good while. I was designer/CAD guy, then used OneCNC to program, then walked my happy ass to the machine, set it up and made the parts.

It's not in any way the most efficient process, unless you have parts with a very long run time. Most of the parts I was doing had a run time that was under an hour, many under 20 minutes. If I'm making 1-2 parts, then that's not really enough time for me to design, model, program, and run the next part. There is a lot of idle spindle and chuck time. If your company focuses on keeping those spindles running - no it's not good. If your company focuses on providing a service and just making "$xxx" per week/month, or investing in future contract bidding... that's a different animal.

Or if you have a few inefficient machines that help create parts that keep many other spindles at 90% runtime... that may be great.

The actual /role/ though is great. Your quality, manufacturability, and designs will be higher quality. But somewhat less efficient. It's a trade off.

Tom Lg · Feb 5, 2016

CutEdge said:
Does anyone do this?

All day, every day.

hanermo · Feb 5, 2016

All sorts of opinions, all over the map, and, funnily imho, all are correct.

Its harder, slower, more expensive, less efficient.

Its * also * better, creates better parts, cheaper parts.

Anything and everything "better" is also "harder, more complex, more expensive".

Thus, the "right" solution is a minimax-critical path choice between the options available.

A top guy in the first seat is a lot better than anything else, from POV of downstream cost, efficiency, productivity, costs.
The top guys are pretty expensive, 10k/month and up.
There are few, and their mistakes may be expensive, especally on higher volume.

There is no "right choice" - as such.
Everything depends on mix of parts, volumes, resources, local conditions.

Mtndew · Feb 5, 2016

Tom Lg said:
All day, every day.

Same here,I did it for 20+ years until recently I've been off a machine and doing strictly Mastercam. I miss it sometimes when there is a fun job and it's doing some hoggin!

JNieman · Feb 5, 2016

Mtndew said:
Same here,I did it for 20+ years until recently I've been off a machine and doing strictly Mastercam. I miss it sometimes when there is a fun job and it's doing some hoggin!

You and me both. I don't know if I'd be worth a heck of a lot if I had to go back to setting up and running machines right now. I mean, I know I'd get it done, but I'm betting it'd take me 10x longer than it used to.

AARONT · Feb 5, 2016

We do it on occasion. From my understanding, thats how it used to be everywhere.

Rachie · Feb 5, 2016

I'm a novice who has been doing this for about a year. I have similar experiences to everyone else. I've become very familiar with the entire manufacturing chain, allowing me to design better parts. A full time machinist could easily run the machine better than me, but they wouldn't be able to give me as much feedback to simplify the design. I highly recommend all designers/engineers go through this process at least a few times.

I've learned something else, too: the current generation of machining software is woefully inadequate. CAD, CAM, and even the software which runs the machine all seems to be thrown together at the last minute, to the point where we're lucky it works at all. Expensive, proprietary, and closed source software with large monopolies means there's no incentive to improve. All this results in a very slow and painful workflow.

I realize these are big opinions for a machining novice, but sometimes it takes an outsider to see the elephant in the room.

Konstrukter1 · Feb 7, 2016

Hello,

same here (Plus part design and injection moulding of first parts).
I got help every day from my father, thank god(~40 years involved in moldmaking businesses).

cellardoor7 · Feb 7, 2016

"I realize these are big opinions for a machining novice"

Quote of the day

cellardoor7 · Feb 7, 2016

"A full time machinist could easily run the machine better than me, but they wouldn't be able to give me as much feedback to simplify the design."

Another gem

CAD + CAM + CNC all by one person?

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