CAD Design Services & Machine Shops?

Hey everyone. I'm a mechanical engineer and entrepreneur in beginning stages of launching a CAD design company.

One of my thoughts was to be able to assist machine shops with CAD services, but I am not exactly sure how to ensure I am adding value at the machine shop level. I was hopeful you would be able to give some feedback on what types of offerings would be useful in your machine shops?

Here are some additional questions to help conversation:

• Would CAD services be valuable to a machine shop?
• Does your machine shop often get design requests?
• Would you outsource those design requests?
• How often do you get design requests?
• What would be your preferred deliverables?
• What reservations do you have about outsourcing CAD work?
• What type of payment structure would be most useful for contracting CAD services, per job or per hour?
• How much would you be willing to pay hourly for CAD services?
• Could you mark up a value added CAD service to your end customer?
• Have you or would you consider outsourcing CAM programming?
• What reservations do you have with outsourcing CAM programming?
• What would you be willing to pay for CAM programming services?
• Anything else that would be helpful to you or I should consider?

Hell Rad,

Best of luck in your endeavors. I cannot comment on the feasibility of this type of business, however, I may be able to add some thoughts to the big picture being someone who frequently uses CAD/CAM and manages others who use it as well. Some thoughts in no particular order:

1. I've noticed there is a large gap between those that perform CAD work the fastest vs. those that tend to do it more slowly. Generally, our personnel who are slowest are also the newest to the company. It seems that those who have a greater understanding of our actual machining processes are quicker and mpre proficient with blueprint generation. Because of this (if I was in your situation) my target customers would be those that do not have any experience with CAD vs. customers who just need "some extra help" in that arena.

2. If you have only minor machining experience you will have a LARGE learning curve towards your proposed audience. That is okay, but you will probably find yourself doing many revisions.

3. I would have to be in dire straights to pay a contractor a per hour charge to do blueprints for me. See number 1 above. I would prefer a per-print or package-of-print price. Essentially, I need this many prints made and you would quote me the cost. That way, I know what I'm paying up front.

4. Design work is generally best left to experts in that particular product's field

5. Outsourcing CAD work is tricky as I am particular about the structure and layout of our company's CAD work. It takes time to train our new guys to get that format down properly. It doesn't mean they are doing the prints "wrong" but our machinists (operators) prefer the prints dimensioned in certain fashion for specific reasons.

6. Outsourcing CAM programming sounds very tricky to me. What about all of the post processor work that must be done up front to get the proper code output? I'm sure people do it, but if you're responsible for crashing our new million dollar machine...

We have contracted work out for both CAD work in the past and CAM work (although the CAM work was done when we were first integrating the system and our processes) and I have been pleased with neither.

rollerman13 said:

Hell Rad,

Best of luck in your endeavors. I cannot comment on the feasibility of this type of business, however, I may be able to add some thoughts to the big picture being someone who frequently uses CAD/CAM and manages others who use it as well. Some thoughts in no particular order:

1. I've noticed there is a large gap between those that perform CAD work the fastest vs. those that tend to do it more slowly. Generally, our personnel who are slowest are also the newest to the company. It seems that those who have a greater understanding of our actual machining processes are quicker and mpre proficient with blueprint generation. Because of this (if I was in your situation) my target customers would be those that do not have any experience with CAD vs. customers who just need "some extra help" in that arena.

2. If you have only minor machining experience you will have a LARGE learning curve towards your proposed audience. That is okay, but you will probably find yourself doing many revisions.

3. I would have to be in dire straights to pay a contractor a per hour charge to do blueprints for me. See number 1 above. I would prefer a per-print or package-of-print price. Essentially, I need this many prints made and you would quote me the cost. That way, I know what I'm paying up front.

4. Design work is generally best left to experts in that particular product's field

5. Outsourcing CAD work is tricky as I am particular about the structure and layout of our company's CAD work. It takes time to train our new guys to get that format down properly. It doesn't mean they are doing the prints "wrong" but our machinists (operators) prefer the prints dimensioned in certain fashion for specific reasons.

6. Outsourcing CAM programming sounds very tricky to me. What about all of the post processor work that must be done up front to get the proper code output? I'm sure people do it, but if you're responsible for crashing our new million dollar machine...

We have contracted work out for both CAD work in the past and CAM work (although the CAM work was done when we were first integrating the system and our processes) and I have been pleased with neither.

Click to expand...

Rollerman13,

Thanks for your insightful reply!

I have a few follow up questions:

1) I agree about assisting those who are slow with CAD; I am hopeful my services may allow machine shops to offer drawing packages that previously would not have pursued those offerings.

I would imagine there are numerous barriers as to why they hadn't previously and I'm hopeful people here may be able to help me understand those reasons.

One thing I had thought of is that a smaller machine shop may not want to provide a drawing package as it allows that shop to "lock in" their customer. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Your comments seem to hint that your shop is staffed with fluent CAD users. Could you expand a bit on your setup and how you utilize CAD modeling & drafting? Do you offer reverse engineering / design services? Do you get those requests?

2 & 5) I have experience designing parts to be machined, but I have not been in a machine shop environment while doing so. My experience is limited to being a customer of the machine shop. I definitely understand your concerns about drawing "style". A couple questions related to that:

I could offer to put prints on your sheet format with your logo etc. Is that of any concern to you?

I think your larger concern relates to how your machinists want to see dimensions and views on a page. Is this something that could be remedied by sharing samples of previous drawings your shop has done? How do you view the role of 3D models vs drawings to convey required information?

3) I agree that a price per job would be easy for simple projects such as, "here draw this" or "I have X file type, but need Y" or "here is this physical part, reverse engineer it". Do you have a price range that seems reasonable to you for such projects? (obviously complexity dependent)

4) I'm hopeful that I can help bridge that gap between an end customer and machine shop who gets a request from the end customer to perform such work. I would be willing to do it under the machine shop's name or as a third party which leaves the machine shop a great deal of flexibility in determining their strategy and risk mitigation.

6) Agree on the CAM concern. I don't have CAM experience or understanding, but asking questions to better understand feasibility for a potential future offering, even if it was only a local service.

7) When you say you haven't been pleased with CAD services. Where did they go wrong and what could have made it a better experience?

It's kinda a common thing:
New Product Development - 3D CAD - business/commercial - by owner - sale

The BEST thing an engineering can do for a machine shop is stay out of it.

Larry Dickman said:

The BEST thing an engineering can do for a machine shop is stay out of it.

Click to expand...

However, if it is possible to create a win/win/win scenario, why not pursue it? Customer gets high quality service, machine shop stays focused on their area of expertise, and CAD offerings get delivered efficiently and effectively.

I can sympathize with the mentality of keeping an engineer out (we have a knack for over complicating while tripping over egos), however, it doesn't do much to further this conversation in your single line statement. Could you expand on your experiences and help me empathize?

rad1424 said:

However, if it is possible to create a win/win/win scenario, why not pursue it? Customer gets high quality service, machine shop stays focused on their area of expertise, and CAD offerings get delivered efficiently and effectively.

I can sympathize with the mentality of keeping an engineer out (we have a knack for over complicating while tripping over egos), however, it doesn't do much to further this conversation in your single line statement. Could you expand on your experiences and help me empathize?

Click to expand...

Hey, just jerking you chain buddy.

Most, (not all) engineers have the mentality, hey, I went to collage, I'm not going to waste my time listening to some shop guy with dirty hands. The ego thing can be a big problem. I could go on and on, but I've got a fedx truck to catch

rad1424 said:

Could you expand on your experiences and help me empathize?

Click to expand...

As a toolmaker for 20+ years and CAD designer for 10+ years I can offer a few thoughts if it would help. I'm all in favor of engineers going into the shop (and vice versa) provided they enter with a willingness to learn something from someone that hasn't graduated from college, many engineers are reluctant to listen to those they feel are beneath their educational level. Many of the engineers I've worked with over the decades believe they understand the machining process but in reality do not. Many engineers believe they know how to create a drawing that's ready for manufacturing, this is not often the case. This is not a post to beat up on engineers, most of them are very bright, capable of working out the theories they learned in college. I have great respect for engineers that worked in the shop and the older engineers that have tempered their theoretical education with reality. From graduated engineers I've been directed to:

1) Use 4 place decimal notation (drawing) because he intended to use the pitch diameter of a tapped hole to locate another component, eliminating the need for dowel pins.
2) Explain whether a micrometer or a caliper is more accurate and why (he really did not know)
3) Explain how a "Z Form" from bent sheet metal needs to be used (it would not function as she designed it)
4) Had a 4 place decimal on the drawing that located a water jacket on an injection mold. Engineer did not understand why I couldn't just interpret the drawing to know which 4 place decimal dimensions were important and which ones would have fractional sheet tolerances.
5) Most drawings from engineers are without tolerances, those that have them are often unrealistic or are prohibitively expensive.
6) Many component designs from engineers that are to be manufactured in-house do not take the existing machinery or the capability of the machinery into account.
7) Many components designed by engineers do not seem to understand that sharp internal corners do not make sense from a structural, manufacturing, or economic standpoint. Engineers leave sharp corners on everything.
8) In all too many instances the title "engineer" is overused, under prepared, and over estimates status.


I have many other examples but suffice to say that there's a reason for the animosity between engineering and the shop and not all of it is the fault of the shop personnel. If you intend to open a business as a "value added" service then I might suggest you have an area of specialization because most places that I've worked have a design/engineering department that's CAD capable. Other wise you're just trying to catch the overflow of work from places that already have a full dance card. I do wish you luck in your endeavor but you'll have to offer more than just a degree and a seat of software.

As an engineer (with almost 35 years experience with CAD, and for many before with a drafting board... ) and a machinist (and often both at the same time) I have seen mostly one of two scenarios:

1. A shop making parts designed by an engineer (in cad or otherwise)
2. An engineer designing parts to be made by the shop

It is seldom that an engineer has any input in jobs that are coming to the shop from other sources. It is equally uncommon, though somehow of a higher probability,that a shop itself is designing parts for its own projects - and in cases as this the person making and/or designing those parts is usually knowledgeable enough (and I know machinist who can put to shame most engineers).
So I am not sue how much an outside designer can contribute to a machine shop. The only exception might be when a shop is asked to make parts designed by someone with little or no experience in design and fabrication methods. In cases like this the shop might suggest to the individual to have the design checked and correct (or most likely redesigned completely) by someone more knowledgeable. The "more knowledgeable" in this case must be well familiar with the capabilities of the shop and produce a design to suit.
While it cannot hurt to advertise your design and CAD skills with machine shops, I suspect that most of the work can come only from other sources - from individuals or business who need design.

Rad,

I will try to answer your questions as best I can. Please keep in mind the industry I work in is niche and my experiences don't travel too far outside this industry - take that for what it's worth...

1. In my experience, mostly job shop type and low production run facilities, the barriers to these companies bringing in CAD, CAM, Engineering, design, regardless of what new technology, is usually due to: 1. employees in general don't like change because it is difficult 2. $$$ 3. There is not adequate personnel to facilitate the new technology 4. concerns with implementation while keeping production going. You will have to convince your customers that you can make the transition easy, worth their money, and you are the right person to do so. Not exactly easy, but you will be your companies best salesman so good luck.

I would not necessarily say our shop is staffed with fluent CAD users, but they know enough to get the job done in our industry. Our products are easy to model and draw in CAD. We create 3D models of parts (that get machined in our shop) from a top level Assembly drawing that is sometimes created internally if we are designing the part, sometimes received directly from our customer if we are contract manufacturing, to facilitate the creation of both CAD drawings and CAM programs for the respective parts. We offer reverse engineering for free but we never deliver a print to a customer without a PO for the new part to be made. If they want the part reverse engineered and drafted with prints to delivered to them so they can farm out the job to the lowest bidder we make them pay for it $$$.

2. Logo, sheet format, etc. are nice, but the meat and potatoes of the drawing - dimensions and tolerances that are easy to read/interpret and even more importantly geometry and respective dimensions and tolerances that ARE ABLE TO BE MACHINED IN AN EFFICIENT WAY are most important. Unfortunately, this is where the common disconnect is between engineers and machinists and is where the seasoned veteran machinists shine and why you hear so much banter between machinists and engineers in the machine shop world. How can you know these things without having learned how a given machine operates, what the limitations are of any given machine, etc? In a perfect world, all machines would be equal and in perfect condition and have the same capability. That would certainly make my life easier, but it is not so. Unfortunately in my industry, nearly all of the prints we receive from our customers are incomplete in some way in terms of containing ALL of the required information to make the part. This is definitely not the case in other industries. Point being, there is just way too much variance in terms of what is required by Company A, B, C etc. on their drawings in order to make the part correctly in their facility with their (different) machines and their (different) skill sets and personnel.

3. I couldn't even begin to guess at a price range, sorry.

4. The challenge with this is I only see this working well if you are an expert with regards to that company's machining capabilities and I can assure you that becoming an expert in any company's capabilities takes years.

6. In my experience, the biggest challenge with CAM is the actual integration. Maintaining the "system" is not difficult. I would suggest if you are interested in pursuing CAM a good path would be to fully understand what it takes to implement CAM into a machining facility. Implementing the whole system is not easy and companies seem to be willing to pay good $$ to have it done correctly. The system I refer to includes: software, hardware, communications between software and hardware, IT type and security work, etc.

7. See number 4. In this instance, I would only want to contract someone to do this type of work if they were already an expert in the field in which we do business, especially as it pertains to manufacturing.

I would recommend that if you are going to pursue this type of business you concentrate on a more specialized niche, or type of industry, for you to work with. It is impossible to be an expert over all fields of manufacturing and your "product" will suffer and be inferior to those engineers who do have that more specialized knowledge and experience.

rad1424 said:

Hey everyone. I'm a mechanical engineer and entrepreneur in beginning stages of launching a CAD design company.

One of my thoughts was to be able to assist machine shops with CAD services, but I am not exactly sure how to ensure I am adding value at the machine shop level. I was hopeful you would be able to give some feedback on what types of offerings would be useful in your machine shops?

Here are some additional questions to help conversation:

• Would CAD services be valuable to a machine shop?
• Does your machine shop often get design requests?
• Would you outsource those design requests?
• How often do you get design requests?
• What would be your preferred deliverables?
• What reservations do you have about outsourcing CAD work?
• What type of payment structure would be most useful for contracting CAD services, per job or per hour?
• How much would you be willing to pay hourly for CAD services?
• Could you mark up a value added CAD service to your end customer?
• Have you or would you consider outsourcing CAM programming?
• What reservations do you have with outsourcing CAM programming?
• What would you be willing to pay for CAM programming services?
• Anything else that would be helpful to you or I should consider?

Click to expand...

Good luck is a field that at one time considered,but got scared and end-up running a custom machine shop.
for what i learned as shop owner and getting to know
friends in same field,a small shop never hires help
because margins are so thin, that they rather do the
work,and most are provided with the cad model from big companies like Boeing etc, so they can not change
or re-engineer so they make as per print.
I can recall to paying twice for something in years, as far as cnc code people needs the help inside the shop and not to wait hours or days to get a solution to a faulty g-code, time is super critical in job shop,but I think your chances are very good
if you can get inside huge companies where time it's not sensitive like mold design,product design that it's an idea to see as market research, or invent something in your own and make it, probably ovehere
most are small shops with hands in everything from
machining to accounting at least is my own life story.

To the OP as a positive comment - imho ...

*Prove* your worth.
*EVERYONE* will buy your services - as in large numbers of shops/managers/owners etc.

The way to do that .. is by being extremely capable, proficient, and skilled in advanced CAD stuff 98% of typical jobshops are not.

Develop CAD models and work processes that make more money for your clients.
Things like family-of-parts, revisions, series-of-similar stuff etc.
Using parameters, programming, databases, derived-values, etc.
Things like revision control, docs management, error detection, etc.

Automating *some* small fraction of the (easier) features/parts of their projects, like cutouts, clearance holes, tapped holes or series-of bolt-holes/tapped for example, esp. via programming with automated GDT.

You need to deliver *value*.
You need to sell *value*.

E.g.
If you automate things like detecting "old" part numbers going into production, you might save your client 50-100k$ per case. This is likely to have some value.

Develop CAD stuff that makes money for your clients.
This will be complex and lots of work for you, up front.
Do it free upfront - this way many will "try" with you.
Once you deliver results, the cash will come in.

In my experience there are shops that need a native capability to design and produce quality shop ready drawings. Shops that develop dies, molds, fixtures, work on fabricated assemblies, construct custom process equipment, reverse engineering, make electrodes...etc. These shops have invested in the capability and maintain the personnel and software/hardware to be proficient. Then there are true contract manufacturing shops that typically take a designed component and with minimal interaction with the design engineer, produce that component to the drawing.

The former group has the ability already and the key is hands on, shop floor problem solving. The latter group simply doesn't need it very often. I guess this type of service fills the gap?

Rad, I am a retired draftsman. I learned on a board, finished in Inventor. Over the years, I worked with everything from napkin sketches all the way up to carefully crafted 3d models. Back in another time I went to a technical school to learn my craft. I had a teacher, long dead, who advised his students that the correct way to draw and detail a drawing is to do it EXACTLY the way the guy who signed his paycheck wanted it done. I took it to heart and had a successful career with just a single company. Back in the mid nineties, I counted the number of draftsmen that the company hired after me. At the time it was 25 (and we were a shop that usually had 4 or 5 draftsmen). Several people hired on and never even showed up for work their first day. One guy came to work and while he was waiting for the human resources gal to get him squared away, he put his feet up on his desk and read the newspaper he brought with him. When he was done, he folded his paper neatly, set it on his desk, then got up and walked out the door, never to be seen or heard from again. It was very difficult to find and keep competent draftsmen in those days. It was even harder to get drafters who not only could draw and detail in a communicable manner, but also could do this in a fashion that was congruent with the way our machinists did their work. I saw drawings that no one could ever create in metal, with any tools on this planet. I had a few expensive paper weights on my desk myself.

My company dipped their toe in the water in both outsourcing machined parts to the Chinese, and in outsourcing drawing and drafting work to the Indians. For a time I was the point man for the work we sent to India. Great bunch of people I worked with there and they worked on our schedule. They were in New Delhi, so the time difference was something like 11 1/2 hours if I recall, so they worked for us through the night. They really wanted our business in the worst way, but no matter how we tried to explain how we wanted things done, they couldn't perform. They just couldn't catch on. Many of those drafters that went down the road in our shop never could get it either.

I came from a background in the shop as I spent about 20 years as a fitter and welder before I moved behind a desk. So I knew the best way to do my job was to communicate with the machinists on the shop floor and ask them how they make stuff. I asked them questions on how to make drawings for parts and assemblies that they could actually machine and assemble.

This will be the major challenge you face - communicating effectively with your customers on how they do things and how they want things done. You need to find these things out and do it that way. If they want you to ignore ANSI/ASME Y14.1 and do their drawings in Sanskrit, then that's the way you should do it if you want your business to succeed.

Hey everyone, I had been off the thread for a while and it appears to have gained some traction. I really appreciate the thought out responses and plan on going through them shortly! Again, I really appreciate the input and look forward to continuing conversation!

hanermo said:

To the OP as a positive comment - imho ...

*Prove* your worth.
*EVERYONE* will buy your services - as in large numbers of shops/managers/owners etc.

The way to do that .. is by being extremely capable, proficient, and skilled in advanced CAD stuff 98% of typical jobshops are not.

Develop CAD models and work processes that make more money for your clients.
Things like family-of-parts, revisions, series-of-similar stuff etc.
Using parameters, programming, databases, derived-values, etc.
Things like revision control, docs management, error detection, etc.

Automating *some* small fraction of the (easier) features/parts of their projects, like cutouts, clearance holes, tapped holes or series-of bolt-holes/tapped for example, esp. via programming with automated GDT.

You need to deliver *value*.
You need to sell *value*.

E.g.
If you automate things like detecting "old" part numbers going into production, you might save your client 50-100k$ per case. This is likely to have some value.

Develop CAD stuff that makes money for your clients.
This will be complex and lots of work for you, up front.
Do it free upfront - this way many will "try" with you.
Once you deliver results, the cash will come in.

Click to expand...

This is exactly what I'm looking to do and why I am here. I have checked my ego at the door and am genuinely seeking to better understand where mutually beneficial overlap may be.

I'm very interested in your comment about being able to automate. I had generated a few "bridge the gap" automation solutions for the previous company I worked for. They weren't ready to make the leap to Solidwork's PDM solution, but were still dying slowly of full manual entry. I at least came up with an intermediate solution that could probably be repackaged to be useful elsewhere. Do you have direct experience with this pain point or are you speculating?

In terms of free service to learn a thing or two - great suggestion. I'm between jobs at the moment and would be happy to do so for a couple people here. That has the added benefit of quick turnaround . Send me a PM if interested.

AD Design said:

As a toolmaker for 20+ years and CAD designer for 10+ years I can offer a few thoughts if it would help. I'm all in favor of engineers going into the shop (and vice versa) provided they enter with a willingness to learn something from someone that hasn't graduated from college, many engineers are reluctant to listen to those they feel are beneath their educational level. Many of the engineers I've worked with over the decades believe they understand the machining process but in reality do not. Many engineers believe they know how to create a drawing that's ready for manufacturing, this is not often the case. This is not a post to beat up on engineers, most of them are very bright, capable of working out the theories they learned in college. I have great respect for engineers that worked in the shop and the older engineers that have tempered their theoretical education with reality. From graduated engineers I've been directed to:

1) Use 4 place decimal notation (drawing) because he intended to use the pitch diameter of a tapped hole to locate another component, eliminating the need for dowel pins.
2) Explain whether a micrometer or a caliper is more accurate and why (he really did not know)
3) Explain how a "Z Form" from bent sheet metal needs to be used (it would not function as she designed it)
4) Had a 4 place decimal on the drawing that located a water jacket on an injection mold. Engineer did not understand why I couldn't just interpret the drawing to know which 4 place decimal dimensions were important and which ones would have fractional sheet tolerances.
5) Most drawings from engineers are without tolerances, those that have them are often unrealistic or are prohibitively expensive.
6) Many component designs from engineers that are to be manufactured in-house do not take the existing machinery or the capability of the machinery into account.
7) Many components designed by engineers do not seem to understand that sharp internal corners do not make sense from a structural, manufacturing, or economic standpoint. Engineers leave sharp corners on everything.
8) In all too many instances the title "engineer" is overused, under prepared, and over estimates status.


I have many other examples but suffice to say that there's a reason for the animosity between engineering and the shop and not all of it is the fault of the shop personnel. If you intend to open a business as a "value added" service then I might suggest you have an area of specialization because most places that I've worked have a design/engineering department that's CAD capable. Other wise you're just trying to catch the overflow of work from places that already have a full dance card. I do wish you luck in your endeavor but you'll have to offer more than just a degree and a seat of software.

Click to expand...

I can understand those points. Despite the fact that I was in a full engineering role in my last company, I was fortunate enough that the owner was a master machinist and that our senior engineer was a very practical, hands on type. He became engineer through experience, not schooling. Thus, they were able to mentor me to bridge many of the knowledge gaps that you mentioned.

However, I can still appreciate that there is an art to the trade. I do not expect to know all of the intricacies of what can and cannot be done. My goal is to always be realistic and approach situations with a desire to learn and make an improvement. I think with that mindset, it is possible to be effective enough to offer value. The portions I do not know, I believe it's make up for with genuine effort to walk alongside the customer and address issues until those gaps are bridged.

R. Dan said:

This will be the major challenge you face - communicating effectively with your customers on how they do things and how they want things done. You need to find these things out and do it that way. If they want you to ignore ANSI/ASME Y14.1 and do their drawings in Sanskrit, then that's the way you should do it if you want your business to succeed.

Click to expand...

This the exact reason I am here. I am trying to better understand, conceptually, what may or may not be viable before I go charging into the local machine shops looking like a complete fool. The better I understand pain points or what is really desired, the better I can assist. Or I may decide to not to pursue this avenue, it may not be a viable idea and that is just as useful to know!

In my mind, I believe there may be possible ways to connect and create win/win scenarios. However, even if I am conceptually right, it still needs to be presented in a way that is meaningful. I am well aware that the machine shops get the short end of the engineering ignorance stick and I can imagine what their first thoughts are. I don't want to be that.

XD341 said:

In my experience there are shops that need a native capability to design and produce quality shop ready drawings. Shops that develop dies, molds, fixtures, work on fabricated assemblies, construct custom process equipment, reverse engineering, make electrodes...etc. These shops have invested in the capability and maintain the personnel and software/hardware to be proficient. Then there are true contract manufacturing shops that typically take a designed component and with minimal interaction with the design engineer, produce that component to the drawing.

The former group has the ability already and the key is hands on, shop floor problem solving. The latter group simply doesn't need it very often. I guess this type of service fills the gap?

Click to expand...

Excellent! Thanks for filling in my gaps in communication. This is what I am looking to understand. What groups or clusters of machine shop "types" may benefit (or not benefit) from what services.

Let me re-iterate to check understanding:
- Tooling shops may not benefit from a design service because they inherently need these capabilities to produce and document their offerings; they have already solved this problem.
- Smaller shops / contract shops that may not have addressed those areas and do not readily have a solution because they simply don't need it very often.

For the smaller or contract shops, I would imagine they do get requests from time to time. Initially, this is the gap that I envision filling. I need help understanding what is useful offerings may be, estimates on what this type shop may be willing to pay or how they might like payment to be structured, and any sort of request frequency they might be receiving.

Fadriver said:

a small shop never hires help
because margins are so thin, that they rather do the
work,and most are provided with the cad model from big companies like Boeing etc, so they can not change
or re-engineer so they make as per print.

Click to expand...

I figured margins were slim and it has been one of my concerns. Do you think if these shops had an avenue to pursue custom work that was a bit outside of normal scope and I had provided a pricing schedule they could leverage (possibly even mark up), they would be willing to consider those offerings?

Obviously, I'm assuming that they occasionally get requests to do more than simply make part X (which may be a poor assumption?)