How good is Hypermill for plain vanilla 3 axis programming?

implmex · Mar 28, 2016

Hi All:
Keith is starting to make amorous noises about ponying up for a seat of Hypermill for the 5 axis mill.
When we first joined forces in 2014 he expressed a violent fundamental ideological allergy to the Mastercrap I'd been using, so we became an HSMWorks shop, and we agreed we'd be a one platform shop for milling.
So now that Hypermill is in the picture and I'm facing another new learning curve; how user friendly is it for bog-standard 3 axis programming of our other mills?
Is it vast overkill for 3 axis programming?
Is it pretty good to learn or will I lose my last few hairs over this?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com
www.clarusmicrotech.com

rlockwood · Mar 28, 2016

implmex said:
Hi All:
Keith is starting to make amorous noises about ponying up for a seat of Hypermill for the 5 axis mill.
When we first joined forces in 2014 he expressed a violent fundamental ideological allergy to the Mastercrap I'd been using, so we became an HSMWorks shop, and we agreed we'd be a one platform shop for milling.
So now that Hypermill is in the picture and I'm facing another new learning curve; how user friendly is it for bog-standard 3 axis programming of our other mills?
Is it vast overkill for 3 axis programming?
Is it pretty good to learn or will I lose my last few hairs over this?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com
www.clarusmicrotech.com

It's plain not very good for 3-axis stuff. Honestly, even for basic 5-axis stuff, its not that amazing. For complex 5-axis stuff, its unmatched.

Deyeno · Mar 28, 2016

rlockwood said:
It's plain not very good for 3-axis stuff. Honestly, even for basic 5-axis stuff, its not that amazing. For complex 5-axis stuff, its unmatched.

I guess everyone has different opinion, but I spent 5 days in a seminar with Open Mind Technologies (Singapore Hypermill)at Mazak's Office in Jakarta, being demo'd on Mazaks Lathes, Millturns, 3 Axis / 5 Axis Machines, and to me whom has never used a full CAD / CAM before I found it very easy for basic setup for 3 Axis Milling, Lathe / Millturn operations.

Mike1974 · Mar 29, 2016

implmex said:
Hi All:
Keith is starting to make amorous noises about ponying up for a seat of Hypermill for the 5 axis mill.
When we first joined forces in 2014 he expressed a violent fundamental ideological allergy to the Mastercrap I'd been using, so we became an HSMWorks shop, and we agreed we'd be a one platform shop for milling.
So now that Hypermill is in the picture and I'm facing another new learning curve; how user friendly is it for bog-standard 3 axis programming of our other mills?
Is it vast overkill for 3 axis programming?
Is it pretty good to learn or will I lose my last few hairs over this?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com
www.clarusmicrotech.com

I don't know anything about hypermill, sorry to hijack here. I just don't understand this ^ mentality. The best I can come up is that we (programmers) learn one system so well we don't even see the 'bugs' anymore..? I am trying to learn HSM inside inventor 2016 and I am baffled. Some (very little IMO) is very intuitive and much better than Mastercam, but most of it just seems so foreign to me. It feels like I just randomly click buttons to get the shit to work. Been working with Autodesk trying to get a relatively simple part programmed, and they have been no help so far. The part in question I could conceivably program with almost any toolpath in Mastercam (yes, I know, I'm a fanboy.. :rolleyes5:

) but I can't get anything to work in inventor. Sorry no file on hand or I would share. And yes I get I am still learning it and I expect to have some hiccups along the way, but damn it is like it just does not work. :angry:

Sorry for the hijack, if you don't like Mastercam hopefully you find something that works for your shop, I do know Mastercam is damn expensive so that is a definite negative....

implmex · Mar 29, 2016

Hi Mike1974:
I understand much of what you're saying: I have been frustrated in the same way as you about the HSMWorks workflow; I find it highly counter intuitive and not very versatile.

There are two things that are not to my taste with HSMWorks:
First, it demands a perfect Solidworks model; if there's even a tiny flaw it sometimes turns a simple programming task into a nightmare in a way I've never experienced before.
I've seen a half hour job turn into a ten hour boondoggle repeatedly, and Keith is an expert user so I've got lots of help.
The workarounds demand vast experience to have even a prayer of making them work, and they gobble time like a wolf gobbles rabbits.

Second, the toolpaths are uncontrollable; you will damned well do what the software wants; not what you want.
For example; if you say"Start Here" using the explicit "Start Here" command, it will as often as not do what it wants anyway, and I've witnessed hours of farting about trying to get it to drop a cutter into a predrilled hole for example, or start a parallel toolpath where you told it to.

If you like software that does what it wants reasonably well, most of the time, it'll be a good fit for you; just accept the defaults and go.
It probably won't break the cutter, and it'll nibble out what you intended to make, but it'll take a mountain of code and dance all over Hell's Half Acre to do so.
If you need to control the code explicitly however; either to improve the efficiency of an operation or to run a particular strategy that you have a particular reason for choosing, it will make you weep with frustration if you are under any time pressure at all.

So I still run my age old version of MasterScam (8.1) sneakily on the side for those jobs, and I get the damned jobs out and paid for...no pissin' around!

Moving back to the topic I started: Hypermill is breathtakingly expensive but makes a strong claim to being an industry leader for sophisticated 5 axis milling.
Should we be looking at other software too?
Any recommendations?
Think the quintessential impeller demo at Westec with the 5 axis whizzing around doing all sorts of weird shit just to demo what the software can do to get an idea of what kind of capability he's looking to bring in house.
I've heard mixed reviews about Delcam for example; ditto for Esprit (we won't even talk about the modern versions of Mastercam).
Ideally, I'd like to see a solution that covers soup to nuts; we run turning and wire EDM operations too, not just milling, and not just over-the-top super dooper milling.
I personally am not a fan of the tight Solidworks integration that Keith loves, but I'll live with it if I must.
After all; I still have my copy of MasterScam hiding on the old XP machine.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com
www.clarusmicrotech.com

Rstewart · Mar 29, 2016

I know you or esp your partner won't wanna hear this, but your position sounds ideal for Mastercam(newest version). If most of your work is 3 axis, wire, and some complicated 5 axis and if not maybe I misunderstood.
MC is not the worlds Best at 5ax, but for 3-4 axis its tough to beat. If I had two or three simple machines and one five ax I'd choose MC or Maybe NX.
Probably wasted my time typing this, but you may wanna look at MC 2017

Jorgo · Mar 29, 2016

I'm a die hard SolidCAM guy. I don't do 5axis but their 3 and 4 axis is quite good in my opinion and I don't believe their iMachining can be beat. I've never had better tech support or customer service from any company I've ever dealt with either. Their lathe package isn't great but I hear the next release is supposed to fix a lot of the problems with it. If you're ever over on the sunshine coast you're welcome to stop in at the shop and have a look.
Jordy

rlockwood · Mar 29, 2016

implmex said:
Hi Mike1974:
I understand much of what you're saying: I have been frustrated in the same way as you about the HSMWorks workflow; I find it highly counter intuitive and not very versatile.

There are two things that are not to my taste with HSMWorks:
First, it demands a perfect Solidworks model; if there's even a tiny flaw it sometimes turns a simple programming task into a nightmare in a way I've never experienced before.
I've seen a half hour job turn into a ten hour boondoggle repeatedly, and Keith is an expert user so I've got lots of help.
The workarounds demand vast experience to have even a prayer of making them work, and they gobble time like a wolf gobbles rabbits.

Second, the toolpaths are uncontrollable; you will damned well do what the software wants; not what you want.
For example; if you say"Start Here" using the explicit "Start Here" command, it will as often as not do what it wants anyway, and I've witnessed hours of farting about trying to get it to drop a cutter into a predrilled hole for example, or start a parallel toolpath where you told it to.

If you like software that does what it wants reasonably well, most of the time, it'll be a good fit for you; just accept the defaults and go.
It probably won't break the cutter, and it'll nibble out what you intended to make, but it'll take a mountain of code and dance all over Hell's Half Acre to do so.
If you need to control the code explicitly however; either to improve the efficiency of an operation or to run a particular strategy that you have a particular reason for choosing, it will make you weep with frustration if you are under any time pressure at all.

So I still run my age old version of MasterScam (8.1) sneakily on the side for those jobs, and I get the damned jobs out and paid for...no pissin' around!

Moving back to the topic I started: Hypermill is breathtakingly expensive but makes a strong claim to being an industry leader for sophisticated 5 axis milling.
Should we be looking at other software too?
Any recommendations?
Think the quintessential impeller demo at Westec with the 5 axis whizzing around doing all sorts of weird shit just to demo what the software can do to get an idea of what kind of capability he's looking to bring in house.
I've heard mixed reviews about Delcam for example; ditto for Esprit (we won't even talk about the modern versions of Mastercam).
Ideally, I'd like to see a solution that covers soup to nuts; we run turning and wire EDM operations too, not just milling, and not just over-the-top super dooper milling.
I personally am not a fan of the tight Solidworks integration that Keith loves, but I'll live with it if I must.
After all; I still have my copy of MasterScam hiding on the old XP machine.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com
www.clarusmicrotech.com

With you guys having such fundamentally different views on what CAM software should be, it's highly unlikely you'll find something that really suits you both.

Hypermill will likely drive you both nuts, equally. It's horribly unparametric, and will absolutely drive Keith insane. It's also the largest offender of 'that didn't work right.. lets try this check box, see if that fixes it' of any any CAM software i've ever touched.

NX might have a shot; it would keep keith happy with parametrics, and it gives up quite a bit more toolpath control than HSMworks does.

(i'm curious about some of your HSMWorks issues; I work with some of the dirtiest models imaginable, that usually pass through every CAD system imaginable by the time they get to me.. and don't really see any of THOSE issues. Toolpath control stuff, definitely..)

CarbideBob · Mar 29, 2016

implmex said:
So I still run my age old version of MasterScam (8.1) sneakily on the side for those jobs, and I get the damned jobs out and paid for...no pissin' around!

Marcus

Me too.
And when I want to solid model a toolholder or milling cutter quickly I'll click on that icon that says Cadkey. :eek:

(that's just not right .......)
Time is money and sometimes that cpu box saves both. A plus is that the old software runs lighting fast on today's hardware.
I think some places benefit from having both a higher end system and a quick and dirty system rather than having a rule that says :
"This way is ordained by God and it is what you shall use". Flexible is kind of the new way of doing things.
Standard company methods, big rule books, one size fits all and rigid enforcement of it led GM to what? Then along came Toyota.......
Maybe try not to get trapped into the old GM/Ford/Chrysler model although it seems to make sense to have one platform and methodology

I have never used Hypermill and I'm sure it is great but it's nice to have more than one tool in your box. Otherwise "everything looks like a nail".
Bob

Johnny SolidWorks · Mar 29, 2016

Mike1974 said:
I don't know anything about hypermill, sorry to hijack here. I just don't understand this ^ mentality. The best I can come up is that we (programmers) learn one system so well we don't even see the 'bugs' anymore..? I am trying to learn HSM inside inventor 2016 and I am baffled. Some (very little IMO) is very intuitive and much better than Mastercam, but most of it just seems so foreign to me. It feels like I just randomly click buttons to get the shit to work. Been working with Autodesk trying to get a relatively simple part programmed, and they have been no help so far. The part in question I could conceivably program with almost any toolpath in Mastercam (yes, I know, I'm a fanboy.. ) but I can't get anything to work in inventor. Sorry no file on hand or I would share. And yes I get I am still learning it and I expect to have some hiccups along the way, but damn it is like it just does not work.

Sorry for the hijack, if you don't like Mastercam hopefully you find something that works for your shop, I do know Mastercam is damn expensive so that is a definite negative....

In my opinion, it all depends very heavily on which system you first learned on. HSM Works is incredibly intuitive for anyone who starts using it already knowing Inventor and/or SolidWorks.

In my case, when I've used MasterCam it feels like I have two left hands (without thumbs.) I can't find or do anything I want to do. Meanwhile I was fairly proficient with HSM within a couple of days of starting to use it (probably better than I am with MasterCam now.)

You see the same thing happen with a lot of CAD/CAM software - much of what you do when you use one program is an ingrained habit, which is next to impossible to change without some serious effort.

Mike1974 · Mar 30, 2016

Johnny SolidWorks said:
In my opinion, it all depends very heavily on which system you first learned on. HSM Works is incredibly intuitive for anyone who starts using it already knowing Inventor and/or SolidWorks.

In my case, when I've used MasterCam it feels like I have two left hands (without thumbs.) I can't find or do anything I want to do. Meanwhile I was fairly proficient with HSM within a couple of days of starting to use it (probably better than I am with MasterCam now.)

You see the same thing happen with a lot of CAD/CAM software - much of what you do when you use one program is an ingrained habit, which is next to impossible to change without some serious effort.

You are probably right. Mastercam was my first programming software (not counting bcad 16 or something I used for simple 2 axis wire edm :Yawn:

) and I learned everything on version X (or 10, first Windows based release). I can seriously count on one hand the times it had me absolutely f&*^ed up and I couldn't get through it (yes I have been frustrated more than that, but never really "stuck"). One time the tool violated a geometry selection and I sent it to Mastercam and they confirmed it was a bug. One time the stock to leave in a 3d path (rest roughing) kept screwing me up and would skip large amounts of the model. Turns out they changed the parameters slightly from X7 to X8 and the stock to leave was calculated different where it added stock to leave onto the clearance around the holder (use holder for gouge checking), resulting in a large area uncut. Once I got that cleared up I adjusted my parameters and it worked perfectly fine. I am sure these are things that are happening in HSM, but I don't know where to look for them...

As to what Marcus said in post #5, that sounds about right. HSM wants to do what it wants to do, and you are left trying to figure it out.

I think I have said this, but the complaint I heard about MCX is there are too many options. I absolutely love the fact I can control almost every single aspect of the toolpath. In my mind this is how it should be done, but I know others disagree. They seem to think the cam should be 'smart enough' to recognize the model or whatever and the operator input should be limited, or I dunno, 'scaled back'. Maybe that is the divide between systems - Guys like me want to control every little detail (and thus have to adjust lots of parameters), and some guys just want to click click click and be done. Sure, time is money and the faster I can get code to machine, the more money I make in theory. BUT, if that code is wonky and cutting lots of air it is a moot point.

Right now I am struggling with a part in HSM, turns out for some reason it does not like the solid modle I am trying to use as stock, so I have to set the stock up as a plain box/cyclinder. I guess it will work, but I really like being able to use stock "as is". i hate having to say to myself "well I know there is not really stock there, so it is ok for the tool to plunge there". I want to see it, kind of a big deal with cam, the whole simulation and verify to check collisions and stuff!

Anyways, rant over. Although I have to say, I would recommend you look at the new Mastercam, lots has changed since the version you have (which you said is still working, a good thing!). You might be pleasantly surprised.

bostosh · Jun 15, 2016

CarbideBob said:
Me too.
And when I want to solid model a toolholder or milling cutter quickly I'll click on that icon that says Cadkey. (that's just not right .......)
Time is money and sometimes that cpu box saves both. A plus is that the old software runs lighting fast on today's hardware.
I think some places benefit from having both a higher end system and a quick and dirty system rather than having a rule that says :
"This way is ordained by God and it is what you shall use". Flexible is kind of the new way of doing things.
Standard company methods, big rule books, one size fits all and rigid enforcement of it led GM to what? Then along came Toyota.......
Maybe try not to get trapped into the old GM/Ford/Chrysler model although it seems to make sense to have one platform and methodology

I have never used Hypermill and I'm sure it is great but it's nice to have more than one tool in your box. Otherwise "everything looks like a nail".
Bob

You are absolutely correct, Still running Cadkey on XP
No good reason to get new cad.
After all..... we built the space shuttle, went to the moon with punch card / mainframe / punched tape / machined parts

Mtndew · Jun 15, 2016

Mastercam 8.1?????
No wonder he doesn't like it, that version is terrible, not to mention 20+ years old!
:rolleyes5:

I really don't get the venom spewed toward Mastercam, it's really an amazing piece of software.

Harri · Jun 15, 2016

Marcus, I'd definitely give NX a look. Very powerful, excellent control over pretty much everything and can be highly automated. Probably cheaper than you might think.

Harri

mkd · Jun 15, 2016

Mtndew said:
Mastercam 8.1?????
No wonder he doesn't like it, that version is terrible, not to mention 20+ years old!

I really don't get the venom spewed toward Mastercam, it's really an amazing piece of software.

familiarity breed contemt?
Same is often said about Haas machines.
MC and Haas are the most popular, and the most lambasted.

I'm guessing there is a business involved with the OP. So whatever system gets the job done fastest wins. bottom line. If that is due to familiarity, so be it.

Ex boss used HYperm. for roughing (only) some huge turbine kinda parts. He said it was almost window select and calc. simple. For finishing / swarfing and whatnot was still being done in MC, as Swarf in HM was crude in his opinion.

Mtndew · Jun 15, 2016

mkd said:
familiarity breed contemt?

You're probably right.

Man that's a saying I haven't heard in ages!

D Dubeau · Jun 15, 2016

Mtndew said:
Mastercam 8.1?????
No wonder he doesn't like it, that version is terrible, not to mention 20+ years old!

I really don't get the venom spewed toward Mastercam, it's really an amazing piece of software.

Ya MC9 was much better.

. The switch to MCX for us way back when was such a clusterfuck that we went back to 9. I miss the menu hot keys and workflow sometimes, but i've got edgecam setup pretty good now. I've always hated icon based softwares. I've got two hands, I wanna use them. One on the mouse and one on the keyboard can work together in tandem pretty damn fast. Like a boogy woogie pianist. For me a CAD/CAM program needs options, and many different ways to do the same thing. Edgecam is pretty limited in that regard sometimes, but as with anything there are always workarounds.

Anyway...Has your partner had a chance to revisit MC lately? I got a chance to play around with it for a couple hours a couple years ago on my cousins student laptop, and it changed my opinion from the early x days. Wish I got to spend more time on it.

John Welden · Jun 15, 2016

Johnny SolidWorks said:
In my opinion, it all depends very heavily on which system you first learned on. HSM Works is incredibly intuitive for anyone who starts using it already knowing Inventor and/or SolidWorks.

I started on Surfcam and used it for about 15 years. The first time I tried HSMworks it was like all my dreams for CAM came true. I found it very intuitive. Surfcam has a horrible UI that is very unintuitive. Even worse than Mastercrap.

wheelieking71 · Jun 15, 2016

rlockwood said:
It's also the largest offender of 'that didn't work right.. lets try this check box, see if that fixes it' of any any CAM software i've ever touched.

You haven't spent much time doing 3-D work in FeatureCAM, have you?

jid2 · Jun 24, 2016

Rob and I have the same view on Hypermill. It can do a couple of the 5 axis things better than anyone else, and if you have an application where you need that it will always come out on top. But, it's overall system flow and interface is not that great. No parametric values for anything height related, horribly deep menus without clear understanding of what things do. A lack of really good HSM toolpaths, combined with rest machining etc. Volumill sux. But it does simulate and post exceptionally well and the support is pretty good. The development team also gives zero attention to their basic 3 axis stuff, it is dead to them. They only care about new application specific 5 axis stuff.

How good is Hypermill for plain vanilla 3 axis programming?

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