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Thread: How much is Mastercam x4 3d?
02-19-2010, 05:20 PM #1
How much is Mastercam x4 3d?
I know prices have been discussed before. I have had it with my CAM software and am seriously looking for more-better CAM.
I looked at OneCNC but it looks like it won't solve my problems. Mastercam looks like it may well do it. But before I get two serious about it and strike up a "relationship" with the local VAR, I'd like to know the ballpark price.
I'm looking at 3 axis mill probably level 1 or 2 but would like an idea of what 3 costs. I don't need any optioonal CAD.
How much is yearly maintenance?
I would also like to know how much the 4th axis add-on is and what lathe costs.
Does the VAR have any room to discount?
02-19-2010, 05:46 PM #2
Mill level 3 (full 3D)= around 10K
Solids Add on = 1K
Maintenence for these options $1,000-$1,500
multi-axis add on is another 4K
I think lathe would be another 4-5K not certain
adding multi axis and lathe would increase your maintenence cost.
You definitely can get a discount of some kind. The price I gave for mill level 3 is probably at a discount.
02-19-2010, 06:15 PM #3
I am not absolutely certain either, but I think Mill 3 is more like $12K list, not to say that it couldn't be had for the $10k like the previous poster mentioned.
I can say with a fair amount of certainty, because I asked my reseller that Lathe by itself is $3k. If you buy Mill 1 for $5k they will throw in the lathe for an additional $1k. So Mill 1 and basic lathe would bundle for $6K.
That being said Maybe $13K would cover mill 3 and lathe.
In X3 there was a fourth axis module included in Mill 3 without buying the additional multiaxis license. Indexing is available in any Mill package. For example Mill 1 license will do planar indexing.
Multiaxis license is necessary for swarf type toolpaths, they come up in the Curve 5 Axis toolbar. I may be mistaken but the basic 4 axis path where the tool positions in Y and then A (given typical vertical mill) axis rotates and the tool moves in the z and x axis to comp the model is available in the basic package, without a multi axis add-on. Hope this helps and am very welcome to others correcting/refining anything I have said. BTW I am a happy edgecam user, similar pricing, but admittedly their maintenance costs are higher. They run around 15-17% where it appears that mastercam is 10%.
02-19-2010, 07:25 PM #4
02-19-2010, 08:19 PM #5
This youtube vid (which is by OneCNC) shows the kind of toolpath I want to be able to do but so far I can't make the OneCNC eval do what is in the vid. Tech support said they would get back to me in "a few minutes" with the solution. So far it's been two days and not a peep.
I won't comment on OneCNC showing a toolpath in a video that is not completley supported by the software. I suspect that the video or the Gcode has been edited. Not saying to be intentionally dishonest, just to make it look as good as possible. OneCNC DOES have HSM toolpaths that would result in the cutter being quite cool at the end of the cut.
YouTube - OneCNC XR3 HS Cool Machining
What I like in the video is that the tool descends to full depth off the part and cuts the slot with constant small axial engagement. With my present CAM software, I have to manually build the toolpath with curves in CAD and then tell the CAM software to follow the curves. Takes for bleeping ever but the resulting toolpath really works. Removes the material 3x as fast and tool life is 10x. All the heat is gone with the chip and I can cut 1/4 in deep in tool steel with no coolant. Cutter is cooler than body temp at the end of a six minute cycle.
When I saw the video I thought OneCNC would be perfect. OneCNC WILL make that kind of cut in a pocket after descending to full depth with a helix. That is very cool and I believe OneCNC is the only product in it's price range with that kind of toolpath.
Mastercam just seems to have a lot more control of the resultant tool paths and more strategies. I haven't had a demo yet of Mastercam so what do I know?
Mastercam would appear to be about 50% more that OneCNC and OneCNC has no maintenance fees.
Thanks to all that responded with price information.
Attached (I think) is a picture of a part and the tool path I made in CAD to cut with a constant 0.050" axial engagement.
02-19-2010, 09:04 PM #6
Hmm that is interesting. That was one of the main features I wanted from onecnc. I haven't received an evaluation copy yet so I haven't been able to try it but I have been doing the same thing you have been doing, drawing a bunch of geometry in cad for the cutter to follow. It sucks because it can take hours for certain parts. I mostly machine SS, and its all production work so cutter engagement and shock is a big deal for me. I can't have bogus tool paths shortening my tool life to my cycle time like a lot of cam systems would have it. Be sure to post up if you get any word back from onecnc, I will be on them next week to get some answers as well.
02-20-2010, 06:39 AM #7
The eval of OneCNC (or at least what they set me up with) is online. You basically are seeing the program on your computer as if it's installed on your computer but it's being run from a web server. It works just fine if you have dsl or cable.
I have a satellite internet connection (only thing available in the boonies where I live) and though satallite is very fast there is a 3 second latency for all transmissions. So when running the eval there is a 3 second wait after every keystroke or mouse click before it shows up on the screen. GRRRR. So, I have to drive into town and borrow a computer with dsl to use the eval. Then it seems just like any installed program.
I'm really hoping OneCNC can come through on this part for me.
As I said, there toolpaths for pocketing in OneCNC do have this kind of motion AFTER the helix to depth. So if you aren't trying to machine an open slot, like my part, I think it works great. And it's quite easy to use.
After watching the videos on the Mastercam site, I can see a lot more potential and flexibility there.
I'll let you know what happens.
02-20-2010, 08:50 AM #8
Why not just get Surfcam?
02-20-2010, 09:44 AM #9
02-20-2010, 09:51 AM #10
OneCNC High Speed Machining
This issue with OneCNC HSM and keeping the tool down seems to be related to the width/tool-size ratio of the area to be machined. For now, try using a larger tool, or letting it machine a narrower feature. OneCNC seems to be constantly improving, and I expect this will get better with a new release that seems to be just around the corner (I hear they demoed it as the SolidWorks show last month).
02-20-2010, 10:02 AM #11
Gibbs claim to fame is ease of use. He wasn't asking about that so I didn't mention Gibbs. I have in the past to other people.
02-20-2010, 10:13 AM #12
Spence, you can get that done easily with Mastercam Mill Level 1 using Peel Mill or Dynamic Mill. Level 1 is about $5,000 bucks.
If you're going to be dabbling in 3D work though, all the sudden you jump to around $12K for Mastercam.
Here's a peel milling screen shot I posted in an old hand code vs CAM code topic:
02-20-2010, 10:55 AM #13
I felt the same way about Rocky Patel cigars after meeting him.
02-20-2010, 11:04 AM #14
02-20-2010, 11:16 AM #15
Well, I'd love to but it is REALLY too expensive for my business at this time. It was from their web site that I first learned about these tool paths and decided to try making some with curves in my CAD program.
Thanks Joe for confirming that Mastercam can do it.
And thanks for all the replies. Every bit helps.
02-21-2010, 12:32 PM #16I won't comment on OneCNC showing a toolpath in a video that is not completley supported by the software. I suspect that the video or the Gcode has been edited.
Another HS Controlled Tool Load Video Link:
I can't answer why support has not gotten back to you, as I don't work for OneCNC.
I'm an end user, who runs a shop just like most of you here..
I do have ties to OneCNC in that I am a Beta tester and I am a Moderator on the OneCNC User forum..
OneCNC will also Apply High Speed Controlled Tool Load Operations to 3D parts...some of the others do not..
02-21-2010, 01:30 PM #17
Thanks jumping in. You may have saved me thousands. As I said in one of my posts, I don't claim to have a very good handle on what OneCNC can do. I have heard tons about the great customer service and tech support they have. So far they have been very friendly but I kind of have to keep checking in with them to get them to do what they promise. They may be just very busy right now.
I will say that the woman I have been dealing with is sales is great to deal with. She has been very clear about their pricing and quite helpful with information about their discounts. As I said I just have to keep following up to get the help I ask for. Frankly, I'd rather have it be like that than have a lot of attention from them without the candor.
That tool path is great. It looks like it's cutting just a bit of air at the open end of the part? Where it's cutting across the whole end.
Is that an "open pocket high speed tool path" or did you use the 3d model to make the tool path? I'd love to know how it was done so I can apply to the part I posted a picture of above.
Thanks again for jumping in,
Last edited by Spence; 02-21-2010 at 04:18 PM. Reason: typo
02-21-2010, 01:58 PM #18
That is a Z Level RF operation...and the overlap could be controled by the boundary, or extents, I used..
02-21-2010, 03:23 PM #19
On that note, here is a vid of Featurecam doing a "curly-corner" toolpath.
YouTube - Trochoidal-Milling-316-Stainless-Steel.mov
And here is a comment from the poster on the FC forum:
The roughing operation using "curly corner" is quite impressive.
Material: 316 Stainless steel block - 2.75" x 2.0" x 1.5" thick.
Tool: 1/2" 4 flute EM with variable pitch
Axial depth of cut = 1.0", radial width of cut = max. 0.1"
Base Feedrate = 80 IPM, RPM = 3500.
The second productivity boost came from using FeatureCAM's Feed Optimization (under Manufacturing). If you watch the video you can see how the feedrate varies quite considrable. Feed Optimization calculates the volume of material being removed and adjust the feedrate according to the load/engagement of the tool. This dramatically reduced the air cut time - the back half of each curly corner arc moves at 400 IPM when cutting air while the feedrate varies between 56 and 112 IPM when the tool is in the cut.
For the roughing operation we went from getting 4 parts per tool with a conventional endmill and the basic milling strategy to roughing 15 parts using FeatureCAM's curly corner stategy and the high tech endmill. Once we added an oil/air mist for lubrication and to prevent re-cutting of chips the part count per roughing tool now stands at 28 (and it's still cutting!)
The time to rough one part used to be over 4 minutes and it is now down to under 1min 30sec.
And a note to all you perfectionists watchining the video: I know there is still some air cutting around the outside of the block. This is due to a very inconsistent size and shape of blanks from our material supplier. I rather cut air for a while than bust a tool on an oversize blank
And yes, these are available on 3D features with full solid associativity.
02-21-2010, 04:31 PM #20
Are you under the impression that Surfcam took this idea and wrote a little code to make it work? Like no big deal? Just whip it out and tag on some fancy marketing....
Regardless of who came first, Surfcam's implementation is the best I've seen.