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  1. #1
    Spence is offline Cast Iron
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    Default How much is Mastercam x4 3d?

    I know prices have been discussed before. I have had it with my CAM software and am seriously looking for more-better CAM.

    I looked at OneCNC but it looks like it won't solve my problems. Mastercam looks like it may well do it. But before I get two serious about it and strike up a "relationship" with the local VAR, I'd like to know the ballpark price.

    I'm looking at 3 axis mill probably level 1 or 2 but would like an idea of what 3 costs. I don't need any optioonal CAD.

    How much is yearly maintenance?

    I would also like to know how much the 4th axis add-on is and what lathe costs.

    Does the VAR have any room to discount?

    Thanks,
    Spence

  2. #2
    baran3 is offline Aluminum
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    Mill level 3 (full 3D)= around 10K
    Solids Add on = 1K
    Maintenence for these options $1,000-$1,500

    multi-axis add on is another 4K
    I think lathe would be another 4-5K not certain

    adding multi axis and lathe would increase your maintenence cost.

    You definitely can get a discount of some kind. The price I gave for mill level 3 is probably at a discount.

  3. #3
    GBeaman is offline Cast Iron
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    Default

    I am not absolutely certain either, but I think Mill 3 is more like $12K list, not to say that it couldn't be had for the $10k like the previous poster mentioned.

    I can say with a fair amount of certainty, because I asked my reseller that Lathe by itself is $3k. If you buy Mill 1 for $5k they will throw in the lathe for an additional $1k. So Mill 1 and basic lathe would bundle for $6K.

    That being said Maybe $13K would cover mill 3 and lathe.

    In X3 there was a fourth axis module included in Mill 3 without buying the additional multiaxis license. Indexing is available in any Mill package. For example Mill 1 license will do planar indexing.

    Multiaxis license is necessary for swarf type toolpaths, they come up in the Curve 5 Axis toolbar. I may be mistaken but the basic 4 axis path where the tool positions in Y and then A (given typical vertical mill) axis rotates and the tool moves in the z and x axis to comp the model is available in the basic package, without a multi axis add-on. Hope this helps and am very welcome to others correcting/refining anything I have said. BTW I am a happy edgecam user, similar pricing, but admittedly their maintenance costs are higher. They run around 15-17% where it appears that mastercam is 10%.

  4. #4
    Dave Cross is offline Stainless
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spence View Post

    I looked at OneCNC but it looks like it won't solve my problems. Mastercam looks like it may well do it. But before I get two serious about it and strike up a "relationship" with the local VAR, I'd like to know the ballpark price.


    Thanks,
    Spence
    What problem do you have that you think onecnc can't solve that mastercam can? I am curious as onecnc is on my list of considerations and I don't want to potentially limit myself.

  5. #5
    Spence is offline Cast Iron
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cross View Post
    What problem do you have that you think onecnc can't solve that mastercam can? I am curious as onecnc is on my list of considerations and I don't want to potentially limit myself.
    I think OneCNC would work quite well for most things. Mastercam seems to be better at the full depth constant tool engagement HSM style tool paths.

    This youtube vid (which is by OneCNC) shows the kind of toolpath I want to be able to do but so far I can't make the OneCNC eval do what is in the vid. Tech support said they would get back to me in "a few minutes" with the solution. So far it's been two days and not a peep.

    I won't comment on OneCNC showing a toolpath in a video that is not completley supported by the software. I suspect that the video or the Gcode has been edited. Not saying to be intentionally dishonest, just to make it look as good as possible. OneCNC DOES have HSM toolpaths that would result in the cutter being quite cool at the end of the cut.

    YouTube - OneCNC XR3 HS Cool Machining

    What I like in the video is that the tool descends to full depth off the part and cuts the slot with constant small axial engagement. With my present CAM software, I have to manually build the toolpath with curves in CAD and then tell the CAM software to follow the curves. Takes for bleeping ever but the resulting toolpath really works. Removes the material 3x as fast and tool life is 10x. All the heat is gone with the chip and I can cut 1/4 in deep in tool steel with no coolant. Cutter is cooler than body temp at the end of a six minute cycle.

    When I saw the video I thought OneCNC would be perfect. OneCNC WILL make that kind of cut in a pocket after descending to full depth with a helix. That is very cool and I believe OneCNC is the only product in it's price range with that kind of toolpath.

    Mastercam just seems to have a lot more control of the resultant tool paths and more strategies. I haven't had a demo yet of Mastercam so what do I know?

    Mastercam would appear to be about 50% more that OneCNC and OneCNC has no maintenance fees.

    Thanks to all that responded with price information.

    Spence


    Attached (I think) is a picture of a part and the tool path I made in CAD to cut with a constant 0.050" axial engagement.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails toolpath.jpg  

  6. #6
    Dave Cross is offline Stainless
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    Hmm that is interesting. That was one of the main features I wanted from onecnc. I haven't received an evaluation copy yet so I haven't been able to try it but I have been doing the same thing you have been doing, drawing a bunch of geometry in cad for the cutter to follow. It sucks because it can take hours for certain parts. I mostly machine SS, and its all production work so cutter engagement and shock is a big deal for me. I can't have bogus tool paths shortening my tool life to my cycle time like a lot of cam systems would have it. Be sure to post up if you get any word back from onecnc, I will be on them next week to get some answers as well.

  7. #7
    Spence is offline Cast Iron
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    Dave,

    The eval of OneCNC (or at least what they set me up with) is online. You basically are seeing the program on your computer as if it's installed on your computer but it's being run from a web server. It works just fine if you have dsl or cable.

    I have a satellite internet connection (only thing available in the boonies where I live) and though satallite is very fast there is a 3 second latency for all transmissions. So when running the eval there is a 3 second wait after every keystroke or mouse click before it shows up on the screen. GRRRR. So, I have to drive into town and borrow a computer with dsl to use the eval. Then it seems just like any installed program.

    I'm really hoping OneCNC can come through on this part for me.

    As I said, there toolpaths for pocketing in OneCNC do have this kind of motion AFTER the helix to depth. So if you aren't trying to machine an open slot, like my part, I think it works great. And it's quite easy to use.

    After watching the videos on the Mastercam site, I can see a lot more potential and flexibility there.

    I'll let you know what happens.

    Spence

  8. #8
    John Welden's Avatar
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    Why not just get Surfcam?

  9. #9
    Steve Seebold is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    Why not just get Surfcam?
    Or GibbsCam?

  10. #10
    David Ferguson is offline Aluminum
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    Default OneCNC High Speed Machining

    This issue with OneCNC HSM and keeping the tool down seems to be related to the width/tool-size ratio of the area to be machined. For now, try using a larger tool, or letting it machine a narrower feature. OneCNC seems to be constantly improving, and I expect this will get better with a new release that seems to be just around the corner (I hear they demoed it as the SolidWorks show last month).

  11. #11
    John Welden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Seebold View Post
    Or GibbsCam?
    I said Surfcam because he seems to be looking for high speed machining functionality.(constant tool engagement HSM style tool paths.) Surfcam invented it and they easily have the most powerful version on the market.

    Gibbs claim to fame is ease of use. He wasn't asking about that so I didn't mention Gibbs. I have in the past to other people.

  12. #12
    Joe788 is offline Titanium
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    Spence, you can get that done easily with Mastercam Mill Level 1 using Peel Mill or Dynamic Mill. Level 1 is about $5,000 bucks.

    If you're going to be dabbling in 3D work though, all the sudden you jump to around $12K for Mastercam.

    Here's a peel milling screen shot I posted in an old hand code vs CAM code topic:


  13. #13
    PixMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Seebold View Post
    Or GibbsCam?
    Personally, even if GibbsCAM could cook breakfast and serve it in bed for me, all it took was one meeting with Mr. Gibbs for me to know that I'd sooner dig my eyes out with a pickle fork than spend a bent penny with him.

    I felt the same way about Rocky Patel cigars after meeting him.

    Just sayin'.....

  14. #14
    Edster is online now Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    I said Surfcam because he seems to be looking for high speed machining functionality.(constant tool engagement HSM style tool paths.) Surfcam invented it and they easily have the most powerful version on the market.

    Gibbs claim to fame is ease of use. He wasn't asking about that so I didn't mention Gibbs. I have in the past to other people.
    Trichordal toolpaths have been around for a long time. Surfcam just spruced it up a little and gave it a flashy name and lots of marketing.

  15. #15
    Spence is offline Cast Iron
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    Why not just get Surfcam?

    Well, I'd love to but it is REALLY too expensive for my business at this time. It was from their web site that I first learned about these tool paths and decided to try making some with curves in my CAD program.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ferguson View Post
    This issue with OneCNC HSM and keeping the tool down seems to be related to the width/tool-size ratio of the area to be machined. For now, try using a larger tool, or letting it machine a narrower feature. OneCNC seems to be constantly improving, and I expect this will get better with a new release that seems to be just around the corner (I hear they demoed it as the SolidWorks show last month).
    I tried everything I could think of. Including varying tool size and part geometry. No doubt I'm missing a lot and maybe OneCNC tech support can fix this for me.

    Thanks Joe for confirming that Mastercam can do it.

    And thanks for all the replies. Every bit helps.

    Spence

  16. #16
    wms
    wms is offline Aluminum
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    I won't comment on OneCNC showing a toolpath in a video that is not completley supported by the software. I suspect that the video or the Gcode has been edited.
    Simply not true..As I was the one that made that video, along with some others, and can asure you that nothing was edited, G code or otherwise..

    Another HS Controlled Tool Load Video Link:

    OneCNC_High_Speed_LG_Open_Pocket

    I can't answer why support has not gotten back to you, as I don't work for OneCNC.

    I'm an end user, who runs a shop just like most of you here..

    I do have ties to OneCNC in that I am a Beta tester and I am a Moderator on the OneCNC User forum..

    OneCNC will also Apply High Speed Controlled Tool Load Operations to 3D parts...some of the others do not..

    [IMG][/IMG]

  17. #17
    Spence is offline Cast Iron
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    Wms,

    Thanks jumping in. You may have saved me thousands. As I said in one of my posts, I don't claim to have a very good handle on what OneCNC can do. I have heard tons about the great customer service and tech support they have. So far they have been very friendly but I kind of have to keep checking in with them to get them to do what they promise. They may be just very busy right now.

    I will say that the woman I have been dealing with is sales is great to deal with. She has been very clear about their pricing and quite helpful with information about their discounts. As I said I just have to keep following up to get the help I ask for. Frankly, I'd rather have it be like that than have a lot of attention from them without the candor.

    That tool path is great. It looks like it's cutting just a bit of air at the open end of the part? Where it's cutting across the whole end.

    Is that an "open pocket high speed tool path" or did you use the 3d model to make the tool path? I'd love to know how it was done so I can apply to the part I posted a picture of above.

    Thanks again for jumping in,

    Spence
    Last edited by Spence; 02-21-2010 at 05:18 PM. Reason: typo

  18. #18
    wms
    wms is offline Aluminum
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    That is a Z Level RF operation...and the overlap could be controled by the boundary, or extents, I used..

  19. #19
    SeymourDumore is online now Diamond
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    Default

    On that note, here is a vid of Featurecam doing a "curly-corner" toolpath.

    YouTube - Trochoidal-Milling-316-Stainless-Steel.mov

    And here is a comment from the poster on the FC forum:


    The roughing operation using "curly corner" is quite impressive.
    Material: 316 Stainless steel block - 2.75" x 2.0" x 1.5" thick.
    Tool: 1/2" 4 flute EM with variable pitch
    Axial depth of cut = 1.0", radial width of cut = max. 0.1"
    Base Feedrate = 80 IPM, RPM = 3500.

    The second productivity boost came from using FeatureCAM's Feed Optimization (under Manufacturing). If you watch the video you can see how the feedrate varies quite considrable. Feed Optimization calculates the volume of material being removed and adjust the feedrate according to the load/engagement of the tool. This dramatically reduced the air cut time - the back half of each curly corner arc moves at 400 IPM when cutting air while the feedrate varies between 56 and 112 IPM when the tool is in the cut.

    For the roughing operation we went from getting 4 parts per tool with a conventional endmill and the basic milling strategy to roughing 15 parts using FeatureCAM's curly corner stategy and the high tech endmill. Once we added an oil/air mist for lubrication and to prevent re-cutting of chips the part count per roughing tool now stands at 28 (and it's still cutting!)

    The time to rough one part used to be over 4 minutes and it is now down to under 1min 30sec.

    And a note to all you perfectionists watchining the video: I know there is still some air cutting around the outside of the block. This is due to a very inconsistent size and shape of blanks from our material supplier. I rather cut air for a while than bust a tool on an oversize blank
    Note the comment on the automatic feed optimization.
    And yes, these are available on 3D features with full solid associativity.

  20. #20
    John Welden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edster View Post
    Trichordal toolpaths have been around for a long time. Surfcam just spruced it up a little and gave it a flashy name and lots of marketing.
    Which cam makers were doing this long before Surfcam?

    Are you under the impression that Surfcam took this idea and wrote a little code to make it work? Like no big deal? Just whip it out and tag on some fancy marketing....

    Regardless of who came first, Surfcam's implementation is the best I've seen.

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