Looking for new system. Have Edgecam today

Hi Guys.

I'm new to this forum. So first of all - Hi to all of you!
And 2nd. Sorry for a lot of text =)

I'm working in a small mech workshop, with 30 employees in Sweden. And have worked as a production tech the last 5 years.
Have worked in total 8years at the same firm.

I'm the one who is responsible for cad all our fixtures, making all programs to our machines, and choosing the right tooling for everything.
We are also 2more that works in CAD/CAM besides me. But they work almost exclusively with mold/die manufacturing.
We work mostely with cast iron, ductile iron, and god forbid - White cast iron...
But we machine nearly every material group.


We currently have the following machines;
1 Haas Vm2
1 Haas Vm3
3 Okuma Ma600HB
1 Heller H2000
1 Okuma Multus U4000
1 Star SR38-B (swiss lathe)
And some other small lathes.

And in week 48, we will recieve our new Heller HF 5500 machine.


Today we are using Edgecam for all programming.
We have posts for every machine.

But now when we have invested in this new Heller machine, we would like to have a better program.
We have so much trouble today eveen programming our Haas machines for the patterns, that I dont even want to think about programming 5 axis sim, in the new Heller.

We had a DMU 80 monoblock a year ago. And programming it was a PITA!


The main reason we want to change to another program is;
We think that the support in Sweden is really bad. Nearly everytime you call in with something you want help with, it takes them 3-4 days to get an answer.
If you'll even get an answer...

A lot of bugs in the program. Like if you use a simple rough operation, with a certain cut increment, and have prismatic geometry.
You have absolutely no idea of what the code will look like. But the simulator will simulate that everything is fine, But the code is not good.

In machine setup the program will make some random adjustments to the alignment of the part, by itself.
So if you do not check the output zeros properly there is a risk of collision.

You can not use rest rough in a good way. You'll get a lot of air cuts.

The posts are not good. A lot of faults, which they can not help us with.

We do not get full machine simulation.

And when you work with large files, the program is really slow, and takes a long time to calculate the paths.
And of course, 1000 other things that we are not satisfied with.


We are so sick of this program now, so we would like to try something else.
I invited a seller from Tebis to show me the program.
And i would say that Tebis is a good program for pattern making, and also all the 5 axis stuff you want to do.
But it's not good at all for lathes. Like the Multus machine.
But i really like that the program suggest tool lengts, and the best angle for machining.

We have also got some test milling programs from Tebis, with really good result due to better tool pathing than Edgecam can provide.

And last week I had a seller from Hypermill come to visit me.
At a first view, I would say that Hypermill is a lot better allround program.
You can program lathes and such with nearly all functions that you want.
And it does all 2d, 3d, 5sim milling as good as Tebis.


For Tebis you'll get a personal contact for support.
In Hypermill there is no support in Sweden. So you'll have to call a Danish support-center.

Tebis is bad at lathe-programming.
Hypermill is good (but still lacks some of the functions that are actually good in Edgecam)

Tebis is around 15k more expensive than Hypermill.


Im pulling my hair here, because I want to change cam program. Learn how to program in it, before W 48.

What I like in edgecam is that you can set up a part in 2minutes.
Import the file.
Pick your stock.
Pick the fixture, or import a fixture.
Feature find.
Choose post, and then you're done.

In the other programs it felt like it is a little more complicated.

One big minus in Hypermill for the lathe side, is that it does not support "waveform" turning.
And also you can not machine in the main spindle and the sub in the same sequens.
You have to make one total maching for the main side, and then a new sequense for the sub side.

Now to the tricky question. Which program is the best choise for us?
Both program have a lot pros and cons.
But i'm really tired of using Edgecam.
We want a program that we can count on. That we can see the full machine simulation in, and know that we will get the same result in the machine.


Is there any other program that we should try? =)

It sounds to me like your support and your code generators are causing your problems, not Edgecam itself. So I guess you need to investigate who you can buy from, not what to buy. Incompletely developed code generators will cause problems with any CAM system. Edgecam uses the code generator to affect how the model itself works, so having it right is very important. Perhaps getting in house training on code generator building from Edgecam would allow you to have more control over your system, and would solve your frustrations? My reseller does that training, perhaps you can find someone to get it from where you are?

Hello. I can not not comment on 5 axis or milling, but for lathe Esprit seems pretty good. What I like about them is the support. Your English skills are great and you can email them direct in California. They respond very quickly and sometimes after hours and on weekends. Also what I like about them is that their template system (knowledge base) is pretty good, so you dont have to change many parameters once you are happy with how they run in each material and tool. Also their simulation is pretty good, it shows how everything moves and where it will hit. But yet again I have no specific experience with 5 axis milling. People seem to like hypermill for that.

NUdeljavel,

Since you do not mention cost as being a high priority factor in your search, I would suggest a look at Siemens NX and/or Missler Software's TopSolid. Neither program is 'inexpensive' (though I don't think Hypermill is either), but your emphasis appears to be on functionality....neither NX or Topsolid are lacking in this area. I would assume, possibly wrongly, that these programs should have decent local or regional support; if it were otherwise, I would not recommend them as good support in the early stages is highly desirable.

If you've already looked at them and ruled them out, sorry for the intrusion.

Fred

I'm using Esprit for milling and turning including 5 axis and dual spindle/dual turret turning. Very happy with it.

Seems there is a dealer in Sweden too:

Holotech - Hem

If you get in contact with them, ask to look at Esprit TNG.

Thanks for your input!

Mud.
Yes. It's very possible that this is the case.
The lack of support is so annoying.
But we have managed to do some really advanced programs, but is has taken forever in programming time.
And I know that other programs would have done the same thing in a fraction of that time.
As I also mentioned it is not only the code generator, or the simulator that is the problem.
It takes a long time to calculate the paths.
We do not have bad comuters.
All have 7th gen intel, with quadro card and 32gb of ram.
It takes forever to simulate.

Very often we make a program.
Cant simulate with fine tolerances.
Run it on a pattern. See something that we would like to change.
Change to program. And we have to wait for like... 2-3hours before we can start the machine again.
And all because we cant simulate in a correct way.

Called the support today, regarding some extra stock models it automatically created. (not because of auto stock in new sequense)
So the simulation was wrong.
They could not say anything of use...


Freds.
No the cost is actually not the highest priority.
We want a system that we can rely on.
But actually we have neighbor company that use NX.
They say that the support has become bad. NX is making some kind of reformation in Sweden.
It maybe will become good. But we can not wait for 6 months to get the support we need.

So actually I have booked a meeting with Esprit.
Could be usefull for our STAR machine as well.
Will be interesting if the program has everything we're looking for.


Will tell you the outcome of the meeting

I'm wondering what edgecam package you have. There are a number of levels. I use the ultimate machining, Advanced Customization, Edgecam Essential Turning, and Edgecam Solid Machinist Max packages. It does 5 axis programming and my simulation is very good. When I have needed support I didn't call I went to the customer portal on line and depending on how serious the situation enter a low to critical priority level. On the few times I have had a high importance, not even critical, they have called me within an hour. Try the portal out.Edgecam | Support. Go to this site and click on "vero customer portal", that should give you the help you need.

conceptdevelopers
Thanks for the information
In Sweden there is specific portal from the reseller that they want you to use.

But I don't think there will be any problem using the international one.

I will also give Edgecam a call to see if any of the problems we have is fixable.
But I have already asked 5 times before...

Is here anyone with a working post for the multus?

Siemens NX and/or Missler Software's TopSolid. Neither program is 'inexpensive'

Believe me, if they are seriously considering Tebis, then cost is really not an issue. The company I work for got into it several years ago, made Catia look like freeware by comparison.

iLuvAPT said:

Siemens NX and/or Missler Software's TopSolid. Neither program is 'inexpensive'

Believe me, if they are seriously considering Tebis, then cost is really not an issue. The company I work for got into it several years ago, made Catia look like freeware by comparison.

Click to expand...

My boss really likes Tebis for some reason.
He haven't seen much about it.
But he has seen the result of some programs they sent us.
But I'm a little unsure, because of the lack of turning options.
Hypermill were the same.

With Esprit I think it's the opposite.
Have not seen any milling in that program.
And unfortunately we had to move our meeting to after the holidays.
But what I know of the program is that it looks like it is from the 90s

But I have booked a meeting with Edgecam on wednesday.
Just to see if they can guarantee that the simulation will be correct.
And that the post will be functional from the beginning.
Otherwise we must have a contract with compensation costs for downtime of the machine.
Edgecam has allready cost us a lot of money due to bad posts and simulators.

But I still think that it will be the best cost effective way to get started in Edgecam with the new machine.
Even if a post with full simulation is like 4-5K
We will never have time to learn a new program in 10 weeks.


Another way of doing it is to let someone else program all the jobs until we have bought a new system.
But I don't like that idea really.

Edgecam has allready cost us a lot of money due to bad posts and simulators.

Click to expand...

The simulation depends on the code generator, so it sounds like it's all a code generator problem.

Getting a code generator done correctly has been my biggest CAM problem for 25 years, I don't think it's exclusive to any one CAM vendor.

NUdeljavel said:

My boss really likes Tebis for some reason.
He haven't seen much about it.
But he has seen the result of some programs they sent us.
But I still think that it will be the best cost effective way to get started in Edgecam with the new machine.
Even if a post with full simulation is like 4-5K
We will never have time to learn a new program in 10 weeks.


Another way of doing it is to let someone else program all the jobs until we have bought a new system.
But I don't like that idea really.

Click to expand...

We had many issues with Tebis, due mainly to the fact that we are aerospace and it is a product best suited to the needs of the mold/die automotive sector. After 5yrs off/on usage we dropped maintenance and no longer use it - it was an enormously costly mis-step. Having said that there were many good things to be said about it and it did have its cheerleaders here.
I think you should stick with what you know ( Edgecam ) and invest the 'Tebis money' on Vericut to address your verification concerns - nobody gives better support than cgtech.