Need help, completely lost with cad/cam

Dave K · Feb 25, 2017

Hi gang,
I'm completely green with cad/cam. Talk to me like I'm stupid.

I've been using conversational forever, and now bought a machine that has no conversational control. I think it's time for me to enter the cad/cam world, but find it to be foolish for me to spend tens of thousands of dollars to do so.
All work I do is 2D. There is no 3D work or molds here. A lot of what I do might be drill and tap holes in flat stock, and mill the end of the part. Some of the more complicated stuff might be plate work, where I mill the profile of a plate, and drill and tap or counterbore holes in it, or possibly mill a tight tolerance bore in the plate. Maybe mill an outside hub, that gets an O.D. groove milled into it for an "O" ring.

You get the picture, I don't need to be too fancy here. What's out there, that wont break the bank? Maintenance fees, classes, support. They want to charge extra for all those things, are they all necessary? What's the maintenance fee for? If I buy a software, and it works awesome, why do I need to pay a yearly maintenance fee?

I simply don't understand why these are so costly. I know a lot of engineering and thought goes into the designing of these softwares, but why isn't my up front cost the end of it? Can someone help steer me in the right direction?

Freds · Feb 25, 2017

Dave K.

Below is the link to Autodesk Fusion 360's learning page. While the software has capabilities beyond cad/cam, you can just use the functionality that you want. The software is cloud enabled - the program runs on local machine, but stores data in the cloud. Price? For students, hobbyist, startup or commercial earning under 100K its free. Certainly capable of handling the machining tasks you have mentioned (in fact considerably more). Runs on PC or Mac.

Help

If you like it and need to purchase at some point down the line, its $300.00/yr. If you wanted the Ultimate version (5-axis machining, etc.) its $1,500.00/yr.

If all you want is 2D, then google SheetCAM; I think it's couple of hundred to buy into with minimal maintenance costs. There are also a number of open source possibilities, but don't remember their names....a search of open source CAD/CAM should turn up the candidates.

Fred

gregormarwick · Feb 25, 2017

Fusion 360 is pretty much the default option for someone in your situation. Plenty of discussion about it already on here so I won't repeat unnecessarily.

Dave K · Feb 25, 2017

Thanks Guys. I've looked at and downloaded fusion 360 already, and here's my problem. I'm lost with it. I watched tutorials on it, even had a guy show me on my own computer how it's done, but they end up going through it so fast, I have no idea what to do when I take the drivers seat. If I even do so much as to just draw a line, I have no clue relative to "0", where that line is. I don't know why I can't grasp this concept? Everyone else seems to just latch on to cad/cam systems, and I am just left clueless.

CG60 · Feb 25, 2017

Dave
If you are buying maybe look at Bobcad, been awhile since I have used it. I think they have come along way with in last few years. Maintenance fees supposedly pay tech support and updates. HSM works could be a good deal. Any type training would be advisable, whatever you do. Just spent the last week learning On Shape CAD basically on my on. Real pain. Always a learning curve with software. Any training you can be making parts instead of figuring out what menu tab to click on next or why nothing happened when you selected something.

Dave K · Feb 25, 2017

I was told by somone, just pick one then stick with it, because you don't want to have to learn 2 or more systems. Well, how the hell are you supposed to pick one when you have no clue about them? As soon as you inquire, you activate some pushy sales person who won't leave you alone, trying to get you to purchase theirs. It's a frustrating venture for sure.

CG60 · Feb 25, 2017

You will learn quick tech guys zip through everything like you know what they are talking about and not to mention a couple mouse clicks you never saw. I :nutter:

t takes a little while to grasp, just try to get a little bit of it at a time and it will start making sense.

Sparky961 · Feb 25, 2017

Find a real teacher; someone that will sit in the passenger seat and answer the questions you have as you drive. It may take a while if you're as green as you suggest, but you won't get anything from watching a guy show you how fast he can model a widget.

Dave K · Feb 25, 2017

Thanks for the help from everyone. I didn't mean to turn it into a bitch fest about the learning curve, as I wanted to just get a feel for what the pricing is for something decent, yet not top of the line.

I'm working with someone on Nexgen cam right now. No up front price, just $2470 yearly for maintenance. $590 per year for support, and a two day class for $995.

I am clueless as to if this is reasonable, outrageous, or somewhere in between.

athack · Feb 25, 2017

That's a lot of money. Fusion is $300.00 per year. If you can't learn fusion you'll have just as hard time learning any other system. My thoughts are for what you are trying to do with your mill you just need to learn G Code. What machine/control are you using.

HuFlungDung · Feb 25, 2017

Dave K said:
Thanks Guys. I've looked at and downloaded fusion 360 already, and here's my problem. I'm lost with it. I watched tutorials on it, even had a guy show me on my own computer how it's done, but they end up going through it so fast, I have no idea what to do when I take the drivers seat. If I even do so much as to just draw a line, I have no clue relative to "0", where that line is. I don't know why I can't grasp this concept? Everyone else seems to just latch on to cad/cam systems, and I am just left clueless.

Sounds to me like you're wanting to draw on a coordinate grid, in terms of absolute distance from zero. There are CADs that do this.

Other CAD systems use a relative coordinate system that allows you to set a zero on the part after you have begun to draw it 'anywhere'. For a single, stand alone part, it doesn't really matter where absolute zero is, it is a matter of deciding on a datum (reference corner) on the part. Then you decide on all the dimensions based off that point. At some time, it can be helpful to 'move the datum' to a new position if drawing new features is easier that way. I don't know how Fusion does it, but I think you can probably make some headway if you can conquer that orientation problem.

Dave K · Feb 25, 2017

athack said:
That's a lot of money. Fusion is $300.00 per year. If you can't learn fusion you'll have just as hard time learning any other system. My thoughts are for what you are trying to do with your mill you just need to learn G Code. What machine/control are you using.

I already know G code. Not sure where you're going with that.

Dave K · Feb 25, 2017

HuFlungDung said:
Sounds to me like you're wanting to draw on a coordinate grid, in terms of absolute distance from zero. There are CADs that do this.

Other CAD systems use a relative coordinate system that allows you to set a zero on the part after you have begun to draw it 'anywhere'. For a single, stand alone part, it doesn't really matter where absolute zero is, it is a matter of deciding on a datum (reference corner) on the part. Then you decide on all the dimensions based off that point. At some time, it can be helpful to 'move the datum' to a new position if drawing new features is easier that way. I don't know how Fusion does it, but I think you can probably make some headway if you can conquer that orientation problem.

Thanks Hu. You're right, I'm stuck in the "set up a zero point first" mode. I had seen someone doing drawing with mastercam a long time ago, and I remember the first thing he did was put a horizontal line, then a verticle line, and where the two intersected was zero. Then everything else got "built" around that. I guess I have to get out of that mode.

DavidScott · Feb 25, 2017

For the price Fusion can't be touched! Plus I really like it. Don't worry about feeling totaly clueless and incompetent, I was the same way with Fusion in the begining. Perhaps if you could share a part with one of us and we could program it for you using their recorder, forget the name, to show you how it is done. It would at least get you started. Do you need the cad side or mainly the cam? Another thought is what machine do you want to post code for? This will bring up post processors which is something you need to think about when picking cam software.

HuFlungDung · Feb 25, 2017

I like drawing on top of a coordinate system, too, but mainly for the purpose of verifying the positions of entities with a minimum of confusion. A good portion of CAD is making sure stuff is in the correct place, so it has to be quick and easy to check as you go.

Dave K · Feb 25, 2017

DavidScott said:
For the price Fusion can't be touched! Plus I really like it. Don't worry about feeling totaly clueless and incompetent, I was the same way with Fusion in the begining. Perhaps if you could share a part with one of us and we could program it for you using their recorder, forget the name, to show you how it is done. It would at least get you started. Do you need the cad side or mainly the cam? Another thought is what machine do you want to post code for? This will bring up post processors which is something you need to think about when picking cam software.

I appreciate the offer. I recently had a friend of mine who's quite fluent in cad/cam systems look into fusion 360. He finally called me just a few minutes ago, and he's pretty much re-iterating what I'm getting from everyone here. He downloaded fusion, figured a good portion of it out, and he says it's actually a pretty darned nice program. So, he's retired, and he's going to help me learn it. Sounds like I'm on my way. Mostly the code will be for a Haas VMC, but I might want it also for a hardinge lathe I have with fanuc control, but that's not a necessity.

Dave K · Feb 25, 2017

I'm getting the impression that just plain buckling down and learning how to drive it is my biggest obstacle. I'll see how far along I can get with my retired buddy. He's pretty good at figuring stuff like this out, and I know there's tons of tutorials for fusion, so I guess I'm going to be ok.

pmack · Feb 25, 2017

There was seat of Onecnc XR5 pro for sale in the machinery for sale section for $2500. Far better value, and more intuitive than Bobcad IMHO. You own the software, don't have to pay maintenance or subscription fees, and it is very capable for your needs. You can buy the upgrade to XR7(current version) and you will get phone support. I doubt you would need it, as there is a full training course of videos on you tube, and a user forum. Patrick at Onecnc west knows the software inside and out. I have heard good things about Fusion, but haven't test run it.

Zahnrad Kopf · Feb 25, 2017

Dave K said:
I'm lost with it. I watched tutorials on it, even had a guy show me on my own computer how it's done, but they end up going through it so fast, I have no idea what to do when I take the drivers seat.

That's my fault. I was rushed for time that day when I visited you. Seriously though, it really is fairly simple enough to learn. You just have to spend some time with it. I will me more than happy to help where and when I can. You really should watch some of the step-by-step videos, though. What makes them so very useful for people just starting to learn is that one can pause the video and do the steps for themselves, on their own computer, and then restart the video, repeating ad nauseum until you learn the lesson. And one has the ability to repeat the lesson until it is learned, by rote if necessary.

Dave K said:
Thanks Hu. You're right, I'm stuck in the "set up a zero point first" mode.

Yep. I said as much to you, then. Forget about the origin for now. You can set that when you start to CAM the part, arbitrarily.

You'll get it. You just need to pick a project and dive in. I know you - you're a smart guy. You can do this. You just are feeling overwhelmed by the enormity of it in your head. Just take it step by step, in little bits. The beauty of this is that you do not have to do this overnight. You are running now and you are making money at it. You can do this as slowly or as quickly as you desire, and it will do nothing but make your life easier and more profitable as an owner.

Feel free to reach out any time buddy. And use this place as well as the F360 forum. Youtube has tons of stuff, too.

Hazzert · Feb 25, 2017

NYC CNC has some pretty decent tutorials on using F360 they're not rushed and he's personable enough check him out: NYC CNC

Need help, completely lost with cad/cam

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